Problem with the balance thread..

You're as old as I am then.

I suggest we let this thread die from this point forward. Think what needed to be typed was typed.

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MullaXul wrote:

You're as old as I am then.

I suggest we let this thread die from this point forward. Think what needed to be typed was typed.

^

Balance is more important than useless debates, i'm not even going to check this thread anymore mulla is a hundred percent right lol

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Tommie_Sjukskriven wrote:

Speaking of Jorge, he can't kill me even with his diamondpots(unless I stand still which isn't a good idea vs any build) and no way in 1v1. Why is this worth mentioning? Bragging? No! Point is he does high damage, same with haunt, missuse, fall and kills you near instant it requires quite a bit more vs me, and therefore nerfing it too much would make people like me and others near immortal to him/those(though some of them kills me easier than others).



Wow look, I'm getting so much attention these days :D



To Hauntworld: yes, I am squishy. 2.5k ES to be precise. But do keep in mind that I don't even use a chest piece. (Only cause I find it amusing.)

"

"

Tommie_Sjukskriven wrote:

Speaking of Jorge, he can't kill me even with his diamondpots(unless I stand still which isn't a good idea vs any build) and no way in 1v1. Why is this worth mentioning? Bragging? No! Point is he does high damage, same with haunt, missuse, fall and kills you near instant it requires quite a bit more vs me, and therefore nerfing it too much would make people like me and others near immortal to him/those(though some of them kills me easier than others).



Wow look, I'm getting so much attention these days :D



To Hauntworld: yes, I am squishy. 2.5k ES to be precise. But do keep in mind that I don't even use a chest piece. (Only cause I find it amusing.)

Hehe just took you as an example because someone else did just to compare! :)

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MullaXul wrote:

So I have unyielding, his multiplier is now a 420% instead of 500%. He's still doing around 21,000 damage. With both the belt and passive it's around 300% or 15,000 damage. So by now he's close to my real damage output per hit. Taking these passives is literally changing nothing in the grand scheme of things.

You can't make this shit up.

I feel like this sums up the ignorance shown everywhere in the posts.. First of all your math is a bit off but if we look past that, there's clearly a huge effect which you disregard as "nothing". You just reduced the incoming damage by a crazy amount yet you dont see it as a meaningful thing.

Against a 650% crit multi char (a good bow char?) the belt+passive actually reduce damage by 43%. 43% less damage taken. Now combine enfeeble to this (people should try blasphemy, its actually ridiculously good in pvp) and the critter deals basically the damage of RT with the exception he can miss and almost never crit.

Also, not once have I ever seen you or anyone distinguish spell crits and attack based crits properly. Attack crits can be countered ridiculously hard. Spell crits can be countered only quite hard. A simple cwdt blind setup destroys attack crit builds.

There are also other ways to reduce damage if you bother to look outside of the box. Getting rid of that kaoms and using a lightning coil does wonders against pure physical builds. RT builds can even use a redblade helmet on top of that possibly. Arctic armour is amazing as well.

Compared to their crit counterparts, RT attack builds are actually good if built properly. You have so much room for defences when u dont have to worry about crit stats, which then allows you to use funny stuff like deceiver, coil, talismans, redblades, chaos res etc. Using a 1 chaos weapon and not taking advantage of everything available doesnt really help when you have an unfavourable matchup to begin with.

1h RT melee is actually a thing believe it or not. Kinda weird how no one has a char like that yet

I actually run cwdt+bl+blind over the ab chill most people use, as well as utilizing smoke mine.

We are still waiting for you guys post on Haunt's topic btw.

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lapiz wrote:

"

MullaXul wrote:

So I have unyielding, his multiplier is now a 420% instead of 500%. He's still doing around 21,000 damage. With both the belt and passive it's around 300% or 15,000 damage. So by now he's close to my real damage output per hit. Taking these passives is literally changing nothing in the grand scheme of things.

You can't make this shit up.

I feel like this sums up the ignorance shown everywhere in the posts.. First of all your math is a bit off but if we look past that, there's clearly a huge effect which you disregard as "nothing". You just reduced the incoming damage by a crazy amount yet you dont see it as a meaningful thing.

Against a 650% crit multi char (a good bow char?) the belt+passive actually reduce damage by 43%. 43% less damage taken. Now combine enfeeble to this (people should try blasphemy, its actually ridiculously good in pvp) and the critter deals basically the damage of RT with the exception he can miss and almost never crit.

Also, not once have I ever seen you or anyone distinguish spell crits and attack based crits properly. Attack crits can be countered ridiculously hard. Spell crits can be countered only quite hard. A simple cwdt blind setup destroys attack crit builds.

There are also other ways to reduce damage if you bother to look outside of the box. Getting rid of that kaoms and using a lightning coil does wonders against pure physical builds. RT builds can even use a redblade helmet on top of that possibly. Arctic armour is amazing as well.

RT attack builds are actually good if built properly. You have so much room for defences when u dont have to worry about crit stats, which then allows you to use funny stuff like deceiver, coil, talismans, redblades, chaos res etc. Using a 1 chaos weapon and not taking advantage of everything available doesnt really help when you have an unfavourable matchup to begin with.

I thought deceiver and unyielding were additive. As in 30% + 20% = 50% total reduction in bonus multiplier. As in 600% on paper (600% - 100%base = 500% liable bonus - 1/2 or 50% = 250%) + 100% Add back in the base. Resulting in a total of 350% multiplier being active and taken. I can't double check without unyielding on my tree though. However, multiplicative mod identity would yield (100 x .7 = 70) and (70 x .8 = 44 ) or a 44% reduction in bonus multiplier. 43% is close enough. In the end granting vs 600% on paper a 385% active multiplier being taken.

Yeah blasphemy is good I use a 20/23 enfeeble/temp with corrupt enhance in a corrupt +1 gem gloves. This is also with added curse effectiveness from the tree/blasphemy 20q. However, I play non-crit melee and sometimes cwdt does a better job vs being unable to properly close distance. In unison yes it shuts down not only crit but also non-crit too.

Now here is the thing. Enfeeble doesn't actually lower a characters critical chance/accuracy on paper in relation to what it says it does. You can check this with a buddy. Without considering all the variables this would require a specific test to see.

I think what mullaxul is trying to say is that despite the 50% or 44% workaround. Chance/multi is still more cost effective vs the gain in ehp vs opportunity costs. I just think that is only applicable in a melee vs ranged scenario though. I never really seen a good heavily invested crit based melee. (tempest shield aside)

Blind is relative. It reduces the players chance to hit. If said blinder has unwavering stance or just a really low evasion rating. Blind potentially, could effectively do nothing for him defensively. Vagan daggers are also a variable to consider too.

I think crit and non-crit are about equal, I just believe that popularity/skill mechanics/ease of access make it really hard to see. Also, with the fact ranged can play their limited ehp solely because they are ranged. Melee still have to close distance, manage to sustain while doing so and have the impact to put pressure on a fleeing target. Playing melee also requires a lot of tempo. It has a harsh gear check as well. This is where the unbalance is I think.

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ShinFuuma wrote:

I thought deceiver and unyielding were additive. As in 30% + 20% = 50% total reduction in bonus multiplier. As in 600% on paper (600% - 100%base = 500% liable bonus - 1/2 or 50% = 250%) + 100% Add back in the base. Resulting in a total of 350% multiplier being active and taken. I can't double check without unyielding on my tree though. However, multiplicative mod identity would yield (100 x .7 = 70) and (70 x .8 = 44 ) or a 44% reduction in bonus multiplier. 43% is close enough. In the end granting vs 600% on paper a 385% active multiplier being taken.

I think what mullaxul is trying to say is that despite the 50% or 44% workaround. Chance/multi is still more cost effective vs the gain in ehp vs opportunity costs. I just think that is only applicable in a melee vs ranged scenario though. I never really seen a good heavily invested crit based melee. (tempest shield aside)

Blind is relative. It reduces the players chance to hit. If said blinder has unwavering stance or just a really low evasion rating. Blind potentially, could effectively do nothing for him defensively. Vagan daggers are also a variable to consider too.

I think crit and non-crit are about equal, I just believe that popularity/skill mechanics/ease of access make it really hard to see. Also, with the fact ranged can play their limited ehp solely because they are ranged. Melee still have to close distance, manage to sustain while doing so and have the impact to put pressure on a fleeing target. Playing melee also requires a lot of tempo. It has a harsh gear check as well. This is where the unbalance is I think.

It is additive indeed but you used 500 crit multi in your calculation for some reason. I used 650 in mine because thats how much good bowers have for an example. The dual wield WB/ST char I used to fool around with earlier had 900 crit multi in WB (mostly because of abyssus). The reduction gets more effective the more multi there is.

Deceiver+unyielding combo is the most cost-effective counter there has ever been to something.. 3 passives and a good belt swap for 40-50% less damage taken? At the same time your opponent has invested massively into crit both in gear and passives.

Blind is another extremely cost efficient counter that completely destroys crit attack chars. Everything is relative but no matter where you look from, blind is stupid good when its applied against a crit attacker. Vagan weapons are not a thing in HLD. They are only used in some cast on crit builds because there isnt a single vagan weapon with formidable physical dps.

There's also something that I feel like hasn't received enough attention. The Avenger's flask mod is completely broken vs crit builds. You essentially can't die if you dont get literally 1shot. That's how good the flask mod is. Flask passives are also completely underrated. Having all of the life flask effectiveness nodes (totaling at 90%) from the tree makes a big difference. I doubt many people use the 15% reduced flask charges used node either although it only costs 2 passive points.

Then, lets look at RT builds. There is actually almost nothing aside from the damage reduction part of enfeeble that reduces your damage..

well, i just wanna say that, i cant one shot libritannia no matter what i try. he is using deceiver + unyielding + lvl21cwdt+enfeeble. i can one shot everyone from 12k life while using point blank from mid range. but i cant one shot libritannia from very close range with my highet damage setup. (which is 206k)

also, i cant one shot 5k life 15k eva. i have 3700 accuracy. actually they are tankier than 20K ES builds. i 3 shot most whatever ES those tanky guys have but hardly dealing crits to eva heavy builds. actually, its very interesting how accuracy hungry crit builds are in pvp. i have 8865-18763 X-Y damage its funny how low damage i deal when i cant crit.

while using LA, LA has 2 damage types, if you are using cwdt + flame dash, when i hit you with an arrow, and flame dash procs with cwdt, you escape from secondary damage of LA.(if flame dash will take you somewhere without frost walls/walls around) same for enfeeble, when i hit you with arrow, you curse me with enfeeble, the secondary damage deals 'enfeebled' damage. i tested all these.

crit builds are like the bully guy in next neighborhood, when you are afraid of them, they get stronger. but in fact they are fragile. when you hit once, where they weak are, which is accuracy, you'll see how weak they are.