Problem with the balance thread..

The whole "balance thread" is full of biased opinions.

As an example, just take a look at Mulla's and Haunt's posts. Both of the posts are huge walls of text, yet they tackle on very different aspects of the balance compared to each other. Coincidentally around 4/5 of their suggestions would improve their own builds directly or at least indirectly in some minor way. Also things that aren't problematic for their builds, do not get a mention or aren't seen as real problems..

Also, as an example, I disagree quite heavily with about 7 of the 15 things Mulla mentions in his post.. What I'm getting at here is that the thread is supposed to give a united opinion on how the balance looks like but in reality, there isn't such one view, as can be seen from the posts in the thread.

Once again, i'll say that the pvp balance isnt the problem of the current pvp system/community. We really shouldn't write walls of texts when instead we could be organizing events and other fun stuff. I would even go as far as to say that pvp is balanced enough as it is for it to take the next step which is gain more followers through events and community activities (which are non-existant at the moment)

Organize events and stop writing for a sec

I kinda agree about the biased opinion thing tbh but we need to start somewhere, let everyone drop their ideas and see what the devs will pick.

If the biggest problems are corrected I don't mind some minor changes biased toward some players along the way.

I believe that EVERYONE (including you Lapiz) should write what they tought about pvp in this thread hoping that they will be honest enought to talk about the mecanics they may abuse themself.

Where's the bias?

Can you honestly tell me I'm wrong when I say crit,evasion,dodge, >>>>>>>>>>>> rt,armor,regen. When I use 2h as an example it's to paint a picture using the theoretical highest hp,damage output by design build you can make in these types of games. To show just how greatly crit damage undermines defenses and trumps other forms of damage output. You compare extremes, you don't go "Lapiz 1shot my Tabula summoner with 3k life in PvP waaaaaah".

What else don't you agree with? Nothing is bias about anything I wrote its pretty obvious to most people by now that's why everyone's crit,bow,dagger,caster. Anyone playing another build either couldn't afford it, wanted to break the mold or just doesn't care.

I strongly disagree that PvP in its current state is balanced enough to create a strong following.

Crit damage, you can't possibly debate this.

Tree viability in PvP, really you want to debate that?

You going to defend Whirling blades?

Going to tell me bowers should have traps like this?

Going to tell me I'm wrong when I say a 5k hp crit build can kill a 9k hp RT build in half the amount of hits and often times instantly?

Am I wrong about casters too? They really are moving, just so fast I can't see it...like some Dragon Ball Z type shit. They aren't really just standing in place face tanking RT 2h melee? They don't out dps/tank top melee builds with or without a shield and it only takes them 1 Tempest reflect + 1 cast or a few CWDT explosions to kill anyone?

Chill,Tempest,Molten,Explosive arrow...pretty obvious stuff here and 0 bias.

How improved do you think RT 2h melee would be based on my ONLY suggestion that would help it and only it? A small block reduction passive.

Lapiz I see what you want. You'd rather us put on this charade, pretending that if we all just continued to play crit builds. Trading 1-2shots with each other that all is peachy, that my friend is bias. Every single point I've written would better PvP as a whole, reducing the popularity of flow chart builds and putting an emphasis on everything but spray and pray,1 button 1-2hit kills...which heavily discourage people from PvPing.

If crit was rightfully equalized the only thing that would change on my end is having a big hp pool would become a viable defense. Not much of one still, because how far do you think they'd go in nerfing crit? Crit builds 1-2 shot over 9k hp + acrobatics builds currently...so if they even halved crit, you're looking at 2-4 hits to a 2h RT melees 5-10. Then you add ranged versus melee into the mix and hell...looks like some reasonable and well educated requests to me. Face it if this game had 0 crit at all the game would for the most part already be balanced and diversity would be up everywhere.

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lapiz wrote:

The whole "balance thread" is full of biased opinions.

As an example, just take a look at Mulla's and Haunt's posts. Both of the posts are huge walls of text, yet they tackle on very different aspects of the balance compared to each other. Coincidentally around 4/5 of their suggestions would improve their own builds directly or at least indirectly in some minor way. Also things that aren't problematic for their builds, do not get a mention or aren't seen as real problems..

Also, as an example, I disagree quite heavily with about 7 of the 15 things Mulla mentions in his post.. What I'm getting at here is that the thread is supposed to give a united opinion on how the balance looks like but in reality, there isn't such one view, as can be seen from the posts in the thread.

Once again, i'll say that the pvp balance isnt the problem of the current pvp system/community. We really shouldn't write walls of texts when instead we could be organizing events and other fun stuff. I would even go as far as to say that pvp is balanced enough as it is for it to take the next step which is gain more followers through events and community activities (which are non-existant at the moment)

Organize events and stop writing for a sec

Lapiz instead of critizing what everyone is trying to improve in PvP, you should do something to contribute yourself. ''Full of bias'' Theres a reason why others should post their main post too, because we need multiple opinions and views. OFCOURSE not everyone is going to agree with what we post and that leads to this person thinking the content is biased. Now from that you can THEN post your own thoughs.

Lapiz, seriously, i expected something better from you, than creating this thread that is only going to create '' walls of text '' of arguing and trolling once again. I'm quite annoyed by what you've just created here, i dont understand why you dont use that time to post your own damn opinions instead of critizing what others think.

Thread full of bias ? No, Thread full of different opinions ? Yes. And in what way is my post augmenting my own build ? I havent said once a thing to increase my firestorm damage or my build's overall defenses, talking about increasing weak spell skills is only increasing my variety and the diversity of skills that i can use. You're saying that we dont mention once about our builds, you really think mulla should post whats broken about his cycloner ? Are you serious right now ? We must be playing the wrong game because his build is far from broken. You want me to talk about my firestorm build ? Why dont you do so ? As far as i know i already mentioned that i cannot talk about everything... do it yourself, in fact i think firestorm is pretty balanced, post your thread, talk about it if you disagree.

As far as creating more ''events'' instead of writing here, instead of creating a thread that leads to nowhere, why arent you creating a thread about making events ? Why are you crtitizing others work instead of providing your own contribution ? I dont understand what you are trying to do or prove lapiz. I think the thread i created is a step forward in giving GGG ideas about balancing pvp, if youre not happy with what we suggest, create your own post and explain what you think, the devs arent gonna find your opinion out of nowhere, they need multiple opinions anyways.

You're the one who's biased lapiz, saying that we're wasting our time yet the only threads and contribution that you give to the forum or community is via a thread saying how horrible this sub-forum is and a thread to critizine and to bring down a superb idea, just move on lapiz, keep doing what you do ingame because you're seriously doing nothing good here.

PS: You dont even have to respond to me because i'm not even gonna waste my time checking this thread again, i'm gonna waste my time adding content to a REAL balance thread instead, thanks, have a good day.

Nice thread lapiz, wonderful contribution, i couldnt have done it better.

PS: Dont even be mad about my response, i hope this pushes you forward into posting your main post is my thread instead, i'm pretty sure we are all excited to know what you think about current pvp balance.

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lapiz wrote:

Once again, i'll say that the pvp balance isnt the problem of the current pvp system/community. We really shouldn't write walls of texts when instead we could be organizing events and other fun stuff. I would even go as far as to say that pvp is balanced enough as it is for it to take the next step which is gain more followers through events and community activities (which are non-existant at the moment)

Organize events and stop writing for a sec

My exams are done in 2 weeks so after that I'll try to organise some 2v2 event like you suggested some time ago. Been thinking on how to implement and came up with 2 options to keep things balanced.
* Either we use our real characters and teams are picked at random after every match (like the 3v3 no-team blitz events from season 2 but instead with best of 7's and double elimination) or
* You pick your own teammates but everyone's limited to premades.

I guess the premades have a wider target audience since pretty much everyone can join but I'm affraid it'll be too easy to cheat (swapping some GG jewels/gear) without everyone's profile being public..

Anyways, suggestions are welcome :)

lapiz is beeing cocky, but he has right about something.

that is most of people who complains about balance are using same builds since long time.
only few of us realized how strong new talismans are in pvp, and how big benefits we can have from their new implicits.

lapiz is one of them. he has proven that with new talismans, even with mid-gear its possible to kill the build which is considered as most overpowerd in HLD: EA + leg kaoms.

he tries to point that, instead of talking we should realize how important to switch between builds & ideas while meta is changing. his tongue is cocky, ignorant, but tbh i share same ideas with him.

most of complaints of mine in that thread, i dont care whether they will be changed or not. for example i said that spark is the most broken thing which is approaching slowly to HLD meta but in fact, for my build just increased the proj speed is enough to deal with them. EA? im searching for conversion talismans already, im using leg kaoms with my build, changed my bows colors, using different jewels now. what i mean is, there is always something that you can change about your build to fit the meta. insisting on one build, and trying to yell, shout on forum threads until 'you' feel every other build is equal to yours is nonsense.
im not pointing anyone here, and i dont feel like thats what we are doing in that balance thread, but im against this behaviour... desperate shouting / 'buff my build or nerf others' attitude.

while most of us shouting and yelling in forums, he came up with 2 ideas, 1 is LA + wall, other is namelock point barrage. thats the point we should focus about too, i think. beeing lazy to change builds, beeing lazy to try new things, beeing ignorant to changes and the new meta is the source of 90% of complaints about pvp. this is a fact. dont mind that 90% here, with your math skills you can put whatever number you want there.

Tell me what I can do that I already haven't as 2h melee that will make crit seem less nonsensical. I'm all ears/eyes if you have a solution to being 1-2shot with over 9k hp + acrobatics and still losing slug fests at melee range with casters,bow users with a 700+ dps 2h and flasks.

You can't simply say conform to the new meta or confidently say there is a good answer to everything if you look hard enough. 2+ years of playing, swapping items/trees/gems and experimenting wasn't even required to conclude crit damage is too high. Or that it unnecessarily magnifies "most" anything its associated with causing layer upon layer of balance problems.

I suggest Lapiz makes a thread to:

Justify why we need crit damage this high then explain how to survive 1-2shot kills at all hp/es levels.

Explain to mouth breathing retards like myself how this is positive for balance, build diversity when there are other forms of damage in the game severely lacking.

Justify trap damage and bow synergy

Justify whirling blades

etc.. etc.. I'll be looking forward to it.

Again for the record, whether 2h melee sucks balls or not is not my angle for anything I write. It is what I play and just happens to have a really high hp pool,weapon dps that imo works as a good example when describing damage output/survivability in PvP versus crit. Because if 9k+ hp and acro is 1shot often, what is happening to lesser values? Because if near 800dps 2h weapons in RT form require 10 hits to kill someone, that can kill you in 1-2...what do you think is happening with lesser non crit weapon types? So stop looking at my or anyone else's posts with blinders on just because you happen to be crit. I doubt anyone really cares at this point if their build is buffed/nerfed personally. There is a universal set of problems here that all stem from this one mechanic and you will not and can not counter it properly.

It is pretty important to keep posting in the forums, there should be even more opinions and suggestions brought up over a week. I barely see anyone come up with something, and if a thread opens up it's often only to argue and it's not even related to balance.

Posting feedback is atleast 50% of pvp balance, they need people to provide their opinions to compare them with theirs and other's opinions. That way they can compile and examine what would work the best and implement it after. Nothing will be balanced if no one provides feedback, as far as i know i dont think GGG is playing PvP and they wont see the state of it the way we do. Take a look at the pvp feedback section for a second, tell yourself that this is what GGG will look at in order to have more opinions to balance pvp, they have very few feedback to base themselves on.

Yes playing and organizing events should be a priority too and i would like if we had so much more... but posting feedback is also more than mandatory for the health of pvp.

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Rupenus wrote:

insisting on one build, and trying to yell, shout on forum threads until 'you' feel every other build is equal to yours is nonsense.beeing lazy to change builds, beeing lazy to try new things, beeing ignorant to changes and the new meta is the source of 90% of complaints about pvp

Some of us cannot change our builds all the way around like we want, take me for exemple. Firestorm is great and that's why i put emphasis on it, beside speaking generally none of my posts are about increasing my build's effectiveness but more to bring everyone on pair with others. A caster, who is bound to an elemental skill cannot simply decide to go cold or lightning by simple gear swaps or using different gems. There are nodes on the tree for each elemental that we need to take in order to scale, and we need regrets to switch to another. As a bow build, you can change to another elemental very easily from physical, lightning, cold and even fire. There are PLENTY things to convert the damage or use another element because each gem uses physical and then converts it, you can stack physical on the tree and the damage will scale, it is much easier to use a lot of different builds like you want. In fact with your build rupenus, you could use ice shot very easily, use the gem and swap couple supports and youre now cold based, can i simply swap to freezepulse and be as efficient without changing tree, jewels and other mandatory stuff, no... :/

In fact... after playing poe pvp for 4 years now... i pretty much tried anything with casters that is possible to do until they add new stuff ofcourse. And at this point i rather stick to a build and try to improve it instead of always changing nonstop, you can say im acting grandpa pvp but it is what it is... ask shadowthefall he will tell you the same about why he is trying to stick to EK.

All I keep seeing is "play crit, nothing else matters".

Or people claiming to have answers to things you can't have answers to. The universal response is to simply quit playing it and build for the crit ranged meta instead of finding balance. A meta that hasn't changed since the first day of PvP. Crit + ranged was always dominant, everything else just kept getting nerfed. Like I pointed out, nerfs will always impact non crit builds more then crit ones until you reach a point where they are worthless.

Seriously though, I want the both of you to team up and compile a bunch of information to back your theory on PvP balance.