Problem with the balance thread..

Never implied lapis was crit nor cared. He defends crit on a regular basis and I want him to justify why.

Unyielding + deceiver is not a hard counter.

So T values and skills that just happen to benefit from inherent DOT paired with crit is the problem? So what happens to those builds when you adjust T values and they aren't crit? That's been my point the entire time. You do not Nerf the base nor the T...you Nerf the multiplier that is in turn magnifying the potential of all these "problem" skills. Cyclone is still strong? Haha wtf game are you guys playing.

I doubt many of you will be familar with this but this is the perfect example.

Let's look at drag racing, you have naturally aspirated motors in overhead valve or overhead cam configurations. They rely on cubic inches, cam(s), head,intake and exhaust flow and compression ratios. This is non crit or RT.

You then have artificial aspiration motors utilizing turbos,super chargers and nitrous. This is critical chance/multiplier. You can either slap one of the above on a stout naturally aspirated motor or throw it on a stock piece of shit one and see often times comparable or higher numbers then a fully built engine.

It takes a considerably healthier, built up NA combination to even come close to a mediocre AA one.

So if you were to "Nerf" something....let's say cubic inches, head flow or cam size...you know the life blood of naturally aspirated. In order to reduce the potential of the artificially aspirated crowd....you are only in the end hurting the natural engines. When you should of been limiting stuff like boost psi, pully sizes etc..things that only apply to artificial aspiration or..crit.

That is what you do when you touch T values or other penalties which impact a skill at its core.

Yes some skills are strong without crit. But you first need to lower the damage ceiling i.e crit potential before you can start properly balancing things at their core.

"

hauntworld1 wrote:

You look pretty butthurt, none of my sentences stated you as an ignorant, contradicted your theorys or doubted of your intelligence, stop making up stuff the entire post is fine and nothing was wrong with it.

And please dont compare my firestorm build to your friend's firestorm build, they are not even the same level and there a huge difference between the two...

You completely edited your post as I was making a reply.
For your mental record.

Posted by Completed 1 Challengehauntworld1
on January 18, 2016 8:28 AM

Last edited by hauntworld1 on January 18, 2016 10:16 AM

It took you an hour and 48 minutes to snap back to reality, but I did see your first post. Either that or I don't know how to read.

Your first post was the one I responding to. I'm making stuff up? Have you lost your mind?
You really need to check your tone before we have some real forum pvp, and again insulting people is not an argument. In fact, that is how you lose an argument. I think you realized how ridiculous your first post was as soon as you actually read it yourself. Butthurt might me a proper term in this case. As someone, you made a post out of impulse. Impulse, based on being angry. Next time when you face criticism, don't make angry impulse posts.

You then make another assumption.
Do you know what Jorge uses? No. Why get all defensive to justify or try to prove something (My build>Jorge's build) that requires no justification? Are you serious right now? You should have stuck with your ("Nuh uh, your stupid" post) at least I would not have to continue wasting my time pointing out your actual intent vs the actual discussion.

Self interest keeps the mind sharp, or in your case. Editing your post to avoid scrutiny, and then pretending they don't know how to read.
If you will excuse me, I would like to talk to the other people here that have real input and arguments. However, I'm here if you don't want to just simply walk away.

"

MullaXul wrote:

Never implied lapis was crit nor cared. He defends crit on a regular basis and I want him to justify why.

Unyielding + deceiver is not a hard counter.

So T values and skills that just happen to benefit from inherent DOT paired with crit is the problem? So what happens to those builds when you adjust T values and they aren't crit? That's been my point the entire time. You do not Nerf the base nor the T...you Nerf the multiplier that is in turn magnifying the potential of all these "problem" skills. Cyclone is still strong? Haha wtf game are you guys playing.

Unyielding/deceiver is relative. It can be a hard counter or useless. So yes I agree.

First, DOT's and crit are not THE problem, but it makes up a part of the mosaic of THE problem. I'm more interested in creating an environment that is balanced mechanically.

Afterwards, we will have the information to put a laser focus on withstanding problems. Crit is popular, this is true, but condemning it without all the information you need just seems presumptuous. Which brings me to my next point.

Tommie_Sjukskriven, mentioned how he interacts with crit ect. I also agree with him 100%. I myself used to have massive ehp/staying power. If it gets to a point to where not even crit can put pressure on you. There is a problem. Simply removing crit, I believe would create a EHP must = X type of gameplay.

Right now, there are people the can purely absorb anything aside from exploitable mechanics. If the skill mechanics themselves change. It would also be necessary to adjust the hard cap ceiling. Games like dark souls does a fairly ok job with damage calculations. Armor provides a static reduction that correlates to the amount of armor you have. It then reduces damage by a % in relation to that amount as well. Right now POE pvp revolves around ways to use a life/es pool and damage prevention mechanics. I suggest, the more life you have should correlate in reverse. You gain more staying power/regen and more opportunities to block/dodge. At the cost of a potential increase to your personal damage ceiling in addition too the actual damage cap.

DPS potential and ehp potential become dynamic. People that do heavy damage can see results against high ehp.

High ehp can see results as the ceiling would increase by a small % comparatively. At the same time it will still maintain the games "gear check".

Some people will still lack the dps to deal damage. Or, have an ehp so low that 1 shots are common.

Also, hey nurse. Yeah about LA. I was just using it as an example to outline what I was trying to say (frost wall/wall interactions to multiple hits). It's practical/actual potential is relative of course.

Edit: Yeah Xull, I sort of understand your drag racing engine comparison. My old man is a huge drag racing fan, I watched it a lot as a kid and in person (The noise made my ears ring for a while). I remember sof seal (sp?) and sox, I was to young to understand the mechanics in detail, but I do understand what you are saying. I just suggest you tackle things to create a balanced template first, before you target each piece/component. You will also see in clearer detail the problem components.

"

ShinFuuma wrote:

"

hauntworld1 wrote:

You look pretty butthurt, none of my sentences stated you as an ignorant, contradicted your theorys or doubted of your intelligence, stop making up stuff the entire post is fine and nothing was wrong with it.

And please dont compare my firestorm build to your friend's firestorm build, they are not even the same level and there a huge difference between the two...

You completely edited your post as I was making a reply.
For your mental record.

Posted by Completed 1 Challengehauntworld1
on January 18, 2016 8:28 AM

Last edited by hauntworld1 on January 18, 2016 10:16 AM

It took you an hour and 48 minutes to snap back to reality, but I did see your first post. Either that or I don't know how to read.

Your first post was the one I responding to. I'm making stuff up? Have you lost your mind?
You really need to check your tone before we have some real forum pvp, and again insulting people is not an argument. In fact, that is how you lose an argument. I think you realized how ridiculous your first post was as soon as you actually read it yourself. Butthurt might me a proper term in this case. As someone, you made a post out of impulse. Impulse, based on being angry. Next time when you face criticism, don't make angry impulse posts.

You then make another assumption.
Do you know what Jorge uses? No. Why get all defensive to justify or try to prove something (My build>Jorge's build) that requires no justification? Are you serious right now? You should have stuck with your ("Nuh uh, your stupid" post) at least I would not have to continue wasting my time pointing out your actual intent vs the actual discussion.

Self interest keeps the mind sharp, or in your case. Editing your post to avoid scrutiny, and then pretending they don't know how to read.
If you will excuse me, I would like to talk to the other people here that have real input and arguments. However, I'm here if you don't want to just simply walk away.

I always edit my posts after posting them, maybe you should do the same and stop insulting me for a second. The only thing you're doing right now is infesting the thread with shit that leads to nowhere.

For a last time, stop talking to me because i will not respond to you anymore, i have seriously NOTHING to prove to you. And judging by your account, i seriously dont know why i should even take any of your posts towards me seriously.

Why dont you post in the balance thread instead of writing useless stuff ?

Thanks, have a good day and stop wasting my time.

Sox and Martin

Anyways that's just how I see things. I feel it makes sense to first lower the damage ceiling so you can better assess whats going on then you can properly apply T value changes/penalties or flat gem buffs/nerfs.

I know what you mean in regards to tank builds that are basically un-killable. As RT melee, they are all un-killable for me. What kills them currently is crit and that is basically it unless they want to stand near walls and eat EA/LA explosions. These builds are generally useless from a attack stand point and serve only 1 purpose and that's to troll/draw matches. There needs to be a line drawn somewhere and we do need the damage output to kill such builds. For what it's worth these builds can thank Aegis and how broken it is for most of their survival...so honestly I'd be looking there first, that's just how I think. While in retrospect I myself with over 9k life, unyeilding and acrobatics die in 1-2 shots instantly to crit...so I dunno it's a double edged sword.

For those that don't know, the crit reduction nodes and affix on belt of the deceiver work based on this formula.

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Enemy_Critical_Strike_Multiplier_Reduction

Crit itself works as follows.

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Critical_Strike

If someone were to have 500% multiplier..they are doing 5x their damage output from all sources. If that same person has a solid base damage output...lets say 5000 and was just using 1 skill, which is pretty easy to achieve with very little investment. This person is doing around 25,000 damage on a crit before defenses. Well no one really has the armor to mitigate such a hit so scratch that off the list of defenses. Resists do help reduce this damage output, even when penetrated. After that you're left with either evading it, blocking it, dodging it or face tanking it. I'll use myself as an example again...I have 9k+ life and lets just say 10k base damage as RT 2h. That's my damage output, nothing more it's all I'm packing. The guy I'm facing probably has as much or more life then me in most cases plus a shield and often times viable automated defense options i.e cwdt spells on a caster, or are ranged.

So I have unyielding, his multiplier is now a 420% instead of 500%. He's still doing around 21,000 damage. With both the belt and passive it's around 300% or 15,000 damage. So by now he's close to my real damage output per hit. Taking these passives is literally changing nothing in the grand scheme of things. It's as if I removed a multiplier node or 2 from his tree/gear but the damage in real time is only saving me a few 100 hp per hit. I've tested it countless times versus the highest crit users I've seen. Unyielding only or with the belt and passive, I was saving a few 100 to upwards of 700 life on average. I don't recall ever seeing it go higher then that. At the end of the day I'm still dying in a few hits (2-3 on average at this point instead of 2 flat) and It's still taking me several times more to kill him/her (around 10+ hits).

Yes RT/non crit always hits for that damage, when they land a hit. Lets be real though how often do crits land at 40-75% chance on average? Seemingly every hit from my experience and if they don't aps insures they do often enough per cast/attack.

You can't make this shit up.

Whatever disparity of opinions you guys have, I want to thank everyone to do it here and not pollute another thread to the point it become unreadable by the devs.

Crit has to be stronger than any flat damage to be honest, or it completely defeats the purpose of ''critical''.

As an exemple, a 2h rt build should not do more damage than a crit build, but should have more defenses.

A crit build should have more damage than a 2h build but have less defenses.

IMO, crits should remain the strongest damage output in pvp, but not to extreme measures like some builds have at the moment.

The two extremes went too far on each bridge, defense oriented builds have too much defenses and are impossible to kill, DPS oriented builds have too much damage.

And some builds ''overpowered'' have both combined, and i'm targetting EA here, too much defenses paired with too much damage will ofcourse beat any build out there.

Take another exemple with two players, rupenus with his crit LA can almost 1 shot my 9k es, which is an exemple of dealing too much damage at once.

Aegis tank builds are literally impossible to kill with their defenses, rumi flask, granites, all of these provide insane boosts to aegis and these builds are only prone to dying versus hard hitting crits. For the most part block is balanced in itself right now, the problems lies within the legacy aegis shield and the use of broken flasks, block isnt the problem here because we cant stack it as much, flasks and the item is the problem.

And these tanky builds are almost impossible to kill with current spells i have a hard time killing tanks with firestorm due to the skill not being a spike type but multiple hits type, it is much easier to mitigate multiple hits than mitigating spike damage. The only way for me to bypass so much defenses is by either using flameblast or molten shell ( again here why am i forced to use 1 shot mechanics to defeat these ? ) if they deal physical damage, which imo should not be the only answer, and then again flameblast is very easy to move away from. The only spec that can cheese these builds out is like rupenus LA crit, because its a build that has 1-2 shot potential spike damage and suits perfectly against these immortal builds.

I can really feel people like mullaxul as a 2h RT user who has a more dps/defense rounded build being uncapable of killing tanky builds, it's totally understandable since the opponent has not enough dmg to kill him, but also mullaxul doesnt have enough damage to go tru the opponents defenses. Who's at fault here ? mullaxul not dealing enough damage or the immortal having one perk at extreme levels ? The immortal build is at fault and his defenses should be decreased. The immortal should be the one who's punished for trying to build as a onesided mind state ( all def no dps ), not mulla's build.

1-2 shot builds should not be the only answer to kill tanky builds, defenses are too strong while some offenses are too powerfull, the two has to be balanced out with the ones that are more '' rounded '' between the two.

The meta is not hard to understand atm, it's either all DPS or all DEF. Rounded builds are the ones being punished more than these two, this needs to change and rounded builds should be much better than builds that maximizes on only one perk.

Immortal +- < rounded builds ( most matches ends in draw and the rounded build is incapable of killing the immortal, which is terrible )

Immortal < full dps ( the immortal sees his defenses completely bypassed from 1-2 shots, which is again terrible )

rounded build < full dps ( the rounded build would be better off as full dps against this one since the medium investment into defenses from the rounded build serves completely no purpose, so who has the advantage ? the full dps build. )

As a conclusion, who's at fault ? Builds that focus on only one perk and that is capable of boosting it to extreme levels.

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Exactly

RT builds in optimized form are still several leagues weaker then they should be in the current state of the game.

Crit should out dps non crit, I 100% agree. Values are too high right now. Lower the values, adjust the weaker skills and look...both non crit and crit are viable now.

The problem is exactly how you described it. Damage output is through the roof at literally no sacrifice to defenses. These aren't glass cannons, they are full fledged RT damage tanking mother fuckers that can shit on north of 9k life/es in barely 2 hits. I tried to touch on this exact point many times. Stun would be the equalizer for non crit builds but you can't stun anyone. If a melee catches a bow/caster it should be a problem...it shouldn't turn into a stand off at melee range where melee loses. On the other end it should require work to catch said bower/caster as melee...which it is. You should have to dodge volleys of arrows and explosions of elemental bull shit but at reasonable damage values.

And yes Aegis's mechanics are basically the very reason tank builds are immortal. Guys like Dukan are tanky but he's not Aegis. You can watch his life whittle away, forcing him to run away and regen/flask. He's 100% kill-able to anyone with a brain and imo the traditional definition of a tank. He's how I'd like tank builds to be by the time balance is said and done. They deserve to be tanky but they shouldn't be immortal to most builds.

I'm happy to see that we think the same, i agree that ''real'' tanky builds should remain tanky, it is how it should work. You explained it properly when stating Dukan, he has to move away in order to regen and use flasks when hes taking too much damage and he can be killed by using outplay tactics and moves, he doesnt regen on hits taken so it is a perfectly balanced tank build, but again he needs to be killable if he doesnt pay attention.

Where as aegis builds, which literally requires no brain, can sit ontop of a players dick and watch their pool regen back uppon hits taken. This is seriously terrible and no one should be able to simply AFK on someone and letting tempest do reflect damage and then initiating with dot's or small aoe skills to take down the opponent little by little.
As far as i know if i dont move properly with my caster im going to get dumpstered, it requires good movement skill if i actually want to stay alive, aegis ? it requires nothing but a hotdog in your mouth and being able to right click while playing with 1 hand and wanking with the other...

IMO, disable rumi's concoction flask in pvp. It wouldnt hurt existing matchups very much, but would decrease by a lot the BS'ness of aegis builds, maybe even limiting the amount of armour that you can have in pvp would be a good start to balance these out.

Hey Xull, no i'm not that old (30). My old man just wanted me to see some of the more prominent times when he was a kid.
Your right about the critical reduction belt and passive mechanics. My past testing showed the same math. It's ok vs the low end, but it drops off at the high end. It's just considering that every critical build is not as effectively stacked as the other.

Yeah ice deal i'm sorry, haha but be objective. I don't have a choice. Everything he is accusing me of is something he has already done/ actually doing / tried to un-do. He will reap what he has sown. I will keep this nonsense here though.

"

hauntworld1 wrote:

I always edit my posts after posting them, maybe you should do the same and stop insulting me for a second. The only thing you're doing right now is infesting the thread with shit that leads to nowhere.

For a last time, stop talking to me because i will not respond to you anymore, i have seriously NOTHING to prove to you. And judging by your account, i seriously dont know why i should even take any of your posts towards me seriously.

Why dont you post in the balance thread instead of writing useless stuff ?

Thanks, have a good day and stop wasting my time.

OK, great, we established you edited your post. You should not be confused nor claim to be confused at my reaction to it. It's also important to note that I do indeed know how to read, despite your previous claim.

I don't need to do the same, because I don't insult nor attack people under any circumstance. Everyone has an opinion, it's fine and something I encourage.
I can't stop doing (Insulting you) something for a second, this is relative to no such event actually taking place to begin with.
No, i'm not infesting (my opinion) anything. I'm simply defending myself via verbatim. People can see what i'm saying, what your saying and come to their own conclusions. Self evident.

For the last time? When was the first time you declared I was wasting "your time". Check your context. Last time I checked, you openly insulted me, provided no arguments, and then proceeded to edit your entire post. Perhaps, your anger wore off and you seen reason. Not my problem. I seen it. Now deal with it or cease.

You don't have to respond to me. In fact, I would encourage you to walk away. I won't, you insulted me, and frankly you and I both know what you did. I already addressed it.

Your right, you don't have anything to prove/justify, I established this already. We are in agreement. So why are you contradicting yourself. You obviously in plain english have already attempted to "prove" something. I might add it was also out of context. I never said who's build is better. You also addressed your own statement with an assumption. Again, no. you have no idea what jorge uses, his gear/tree anything, firestorm withstanding. Moving on. I covered this already.

Judging by my account? I see. First, being judgmental based on very limited/no information has a certain word. These people know me. That is all the matters. Do you value your opinion more than the opinion of others? What if your opinion is wrong. Does an account history make wrong=right or right=wrong? It actually does in a theoretical dimension 0. However, we are in a 4D environment with many facets and rules. Lets leave the judgments/conclusions to observation , applied intelligence and actual testing results.

Also, people can form judgments based on their own observations vs our conversation.

I like discussions. In fact Nurse already had a perfectly good balance thread. Debate and different opinions are apart of learning. Natural progression will lead to understanding. At that point, if you want the development team to listen. Compile and post the final result after "understanding" is more agreed upon. What is the name of this particular thread.

I will have a good day. If your worried about "your" time, you should have cut your losses a long time ago. My disposable time will be used to defend myself vs actually playing or having a real uninterrupted discussion.

Your very welcome.