You Only Give Impressions

The trick to racing in PoE is to forget it exists. You will be happier not knowing about the broken format that could be great but is a garbage pile.

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Cataract wrote:

The trick to racing in PoE is to forget it exists. You will be happier not knowing about the broken format that could be great but is a garbage pile.

Never. I only quit when I get a Geofri's with 7mins left in a race.

"let me completely sidestep any point you made and spread my rhetoric"

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CreativeAspect wrote:

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Actingrude wrote:

To put it simply,
The uniformed are throwing accusations at the few.
The accused have no duty to provide proof.
This is detrimental to the community and not necessary.

I find this whole ordeal comical and have chosen to make light of it with my racing decree.

I hope he does cheat, it would be pretty sad to think he worked hard to get as good as he is just to have this happen.

The post I'm quoting now is not the one that originally motivated me to post and I hope you're done editing now. (Honestly its almost a shame, you made some terrible points but you also made some good ones).

While you making light of the situation of people complaining you have entered into the hypocrite zone by yourself complaining about complaints (which I find comical the way you find others comical).

However I think I understand what you do, in that, the way these events are unfolding is not coming about in the best way possible in-so-much-as its not right to accuse someone of cheating without proof with such hostility because in the event they are legit, people are just turning themselves into paranoid jackasses.

But my view of the situation is this (to also put it simply):

- Cheats Exist.
- GGG doesn't appear currently able to do anything about them.
- This forum was created to gather feedback from players.
- Players are providing feedback that they think people cheat.
- Cheating is bad.
- From looking at old posts cheating has been a problem for many many months if not years.
- Hopefully GGG will read these complaints and make cheat detection a higher priority.

Conversely:
- By not posting on the forum and complaining about cheats GGG wont up the priority of cheat detection.



While you seem to have faith that GGG will come along and make everything better, I think a lot of people have been waiting a long time (or what feels like a long time) for something to happen, and it still hasn't.

I think the community has the right to be skeptical and responsibility to press the issues that are bugging us the most. Not just roll over and accept on blind faith that the right steps will eventually be taken. Yes GGG is a great company, yes PoE is a great game. But no, I (as well as others) don't think they are giving cheats the attention they deserve. So in that respect I vastly disagree with you.

However I do agree with you (and GGG support) that some of these pointed accusations are perhaps a bit over the line and could perhaps be handled by the community with a bit more couth.

Edit:
As an additional thought. I believe people have previously expressed much more eloquently than I, their thoughts on how much cheating sucks and impacts the community. However (relatively) polite complaints and formal 8 page statistical essays haven't seen results. I'm reminded of the quote from Jurassic Park, "Life finds a way," in such that the community failing in previous attempts, is resorting to simply trying to piss GGG off to get things accomplished and recent events are simply an evolution of repeated failed efforts to encourage change.

Sorry about that. When I re-read it, it was obvious how exhausted I was when I wrote it so I went with something shorter and to the point.

My concern is for a racer that has been circumstantially linked to a previous account. This previous account was suspected of cheating. There is no evidence to support cheating over other legitimate reasons for his success. The only thing I have seen since becoming involved in all of this are accusations and not a single shred of proof other than his damming race record and the fact that a program exists.

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terrex wrote:

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Actingrude wrote:

I have posted this before, but I will refresh my personal decree of racing.

"Lifetime Season Points: 369"

So in other words, you don't ever know what you are talking about.

You should honestly just leave race feedback, you contribute nothing and it's obvious you just try to troll and antagonize.

As an outsider who is new to racing (but not to the genera, the game, or cheating) I have seen several people attacking someones legitimacy as a racer on the grounds that he became too good too fast. I have seen very little proof to that end, and I am concerned because these accusations are accompanied by pressure from the community to not associate with the accused individual. This is sad to me, and while I quickly am getting sick of coming here and posting; I feel that someone needs to stand up and say something.

I am not saying he does not cheat, I honestly don't know if he does or not. I am saying that this is ridiculous. This reads like a high-school clique bullying the new kid. Your accusations have worked and the community has for the most part turned its back on that person. Countless people have jumped on the bandwagon to avoid standing out or being under suspicion themselves.

Your point has been made, this person is under suspicion from a large segment of the racing community; now it is time to move on. Grow up and accept that sometimes life isn't fair. It is not your job to police this game and its community.

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"let me completely sidestep any point you made and spread my rhetoric"

This is the saddest one for me. Mano I have always thought of you as an intelligent and dedicated poe player. During this race season I have seen a change in your stream personality and now your forum posts that I do not like. Mores and Terrex are known for complaining and over-reacting, but you seemed level. Your connection to the story of debunking psychics has some merit here. But I would argue that there are a few things missing. Rather than offering incentive to produce the same results under a control, the accused is being threatened and harassed. Rather than a provided environment of neutrality with a neutral panel of judges to present to; we have a handful of accusers taking turns as prosecutor and jury. And finally rather than the concern that the belief in the supernatural will damage a generations ability to understand and question, we have a handful of racers who are stomping their feet because they missed out on a few demi's this season.

I am not claiming that anyone does or does not cheat because I can only speak for myself as far as that is concerned. I am simply saying that proof has not been provided. These accusations have not developed in any way yet continue to be brought back up. I personally refuse to condemn someone based on accusation and I encourage the community to ignore the opinions and look at just the facts.


Encourage GGG to take steps against this, take your reports directly to them. The most powerful action the community can take is to walk away from what they deem a broken system.

That's all for now.

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These newer racers are probably just alternate accounts made by some current and/or former experienced PoE players.

Some races here and there yep but not like what was happening the previous seasons.

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Actingrude wrote:

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terrex wrote:

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Actingrude wrote:

I have posted this before, but I will refresh my personal decree of racing.

"Lifetime Season Points: 369"

So in other words, you don't ever know what you are talking about.

You should honestly just leave race feedback, you contribute nothing and it's obvious you just try to troll and antagonize.

As an outsider who is new to racing (but not to the genera, the game, or cheating) I have seen several people attacking someones legitimacy as a racer on the grounds that he became too good too fast. I have seen very little proof to that end, and I am concerned because these accusations are accompanied by pressure from the community to not associate with the accused individual. This is sad to me, and while I quickly am getting sick of coming here and posting; I feel that someone needs to stand up and say something.

I am not saying he does not cheat, I honestly don't know if he does or not. I am saying that this is ridiculous. This reads like a high-school clique bullying the new kid. Your accusations have worked and the community has for the most part turned its back on that person. Countless people have jumped on the bandwagon to avoid standing out or being under suspicion themselves.

Your point has been made, this person is under suspicion from a large segment of the racing community; now it is time to move on. Grow up and accept that sometimes life isn't fair. It is not your job to police this game and its community.

They should make a movie about you.

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Actingrude wrote:

My concern is for a racer that has been circumstantially linked to a previous account. This previous account was suspected of cheating. There is no evidence to support cheating over other legitimate reasons for his success. The only thing I have seen since becoming involved in all of this are accusations and not a single shred of proof other than his damming race record and the fact that a program exists.

See your problem is that you naively believe that "innocent until proven guilty" applies to the online world, more specifically competitive games.

But people who think that (and very many people actually do) don't really understand how Evidentialism works and why procedural justice in the real world operates the way it does.

The reason we have a presumption of innocence in the real world is the simple fact that we have alot of data that conclusively demonstrates that most people aren't criminals. Thus we are justified in presuming someone's innocence until they are proven guilty.

In online gaming, more specifically PoE, we don't have the faintest idea how many people are actually cheating, it could be a minority, it could be a 50/50 split, or it could even be a majority. We just don't know. (especially in the absence of any concrete negative consequences)

Imagine the following scenario. You live in a world in which most people are criminals of some sort, say 60% of people are thieves. In such a world a presumption of innocence would hardly make sense.

The only reason we have a presumption of innocence (in the real world) is the fact that most people evidently are innocent (if not in general, at least pertaining to any one specific crime).

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As an outsider who is new to racing (but not to the genera, the game, or cheating) I have seen several people attacking someones legitimacy as a racer on the grounds that he became too good too fast. I have seen very little proof to that end, and I am concerned because these accusations are accompanied by pressure from the community to not associate with the accused individual. This is sad to me, and while I quickly am getting sick of coming here and posting; I feel that someone needs to stand up and say something.

But you are not saying anything of substance. That's the problem. Does anyone know with absolute certainty that the person in question is cheating? Absolutely not. It's probabilistic. And again presuming someone to be innocent is extremely naive when you have no actual data on how many people are actually cheating. Nobody knows.

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I am not saying he does not cheat, I honestly don't know if he does or not.

Bingo. But it's not just in this particular case, it's a general rule. You don't know how many people cheat, so on what grounds can you presume anyone's innocence? Intuition?

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Rather than offering incentive to produce the same results under a control, the accused is being threatened and harassed. Rather than a provided environment of neutrality with a neutral panel of judges to present to; we have a handful of accusers taking turns as prosecutor and jury.

How the hell would you do that?

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And finally rather than the concern that the belief in the supernatural will damage a generations ability to understand and question, we have a handful of racers who are stomping their feet because they missed out on a few demi's this season.

Self-interest has nothing to do with this. The reason most people are so vocal about cheaters is the fact that cheaters collectively shit all over the integrity of racing.

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I am not claiming that anyone does or does not cheat because I can only speak for myself as far as that is concerned. I am simply saying that proof has not been provided.

But this cuts both ways. No real "proof" has been provided that they are guilty, but no real proof has been provided that they are innocent either. And as I explained earlier, a presumption of innocence in this environment makes absolutely no sense.

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Encourage GGG to take steps against this, take your reports directly to them. The most powerful action the community can take is to walk away from what they deem a broken system.

Not true at all. If people quit GGG will just say "see nobody is racing, so why should we care."

I lost interest in racing 2-3 seasons ago and from what I can observe it's only getting worse the more people quit. So that obviously isn't a solution to the problem. "Just walk away"... yeah doesn't work, tried it. Thanks.

My implementation of the innocent until proven guilty is based solely on Blackstone's formulation. And while I disagree (and have written a paper to this end) on his ratio, I believe that more damage is done to a community by hanging an innocent man, then by letting a guilty man walk when there is not sufficient evidence.

My comment about providing incentive was purely based on Mano's analogy and in no way is a legitimate suggestion.

I stand by my concerns that a potentially innocent player is being harassed and persecuted for something he may not be guilty of. I don't take a moral stance on much, but this is not right in my opinion.

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Actingrude wrote:

This is sad to me, and while I quickly am getting sick of coming here and posting

[removed by support]

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Actingrude wrote:

My implementation of the innocent until proven guilty is based solely on Blackstone's formulation. And while I disagree (and have written a paper to this end) on his ratio, I believe that more damage is done to a community by hanging an innocent man, then by letting a guilty man walk when there is not sufficient evidence.

My comment about providing incentive was purely based on Mano's analogy and in no way is a legitimate suggestion.

I stand by my concerns that a potentially innocent player is being harassed and persecuted for something he may not be guilty of. I don't take a moral stance on much, but this is not right in my opinion.

If it really bothers him that much he could easily prove his innocence by streaming some of his races. Plain and simple.

You don't get to bitch and complain about being unfairly accused, when you refuse to take even to most trivial steps in demonstrating your innocence.

Imagine the following scenario in a court (since this is how you like to analogize the situation).

Judge: "Were you present at the time the murder was commited?"
Defendant: "No, I was elsewhere."
Judge: "Can you prove that you were elsewhere?"
Defendant: "Sure, but I don't want to. I'm innocent until proven guilty."