Snapshotting

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Leunam3 wrote:

yeah thats true! - all other classes have a 100% netgain on them selves, as a summoner u need to buff urself (so u can survive, and your minions) - if u do both - some points are 100% loss to you, cuz the points only buff the zombies etc... - and if u want some nice endgame summoner items - they all have a huge drawback! - and all the other items, the amu, ullr etc... oh cmon! :D i saw a ton of ppl throwing it away already in cruel!

As a summoner, no points are 100% lost to you. You are beefing up both your offense and defense when you take minion passives! They are your weapons, they are your shields, they are your decoys. It is a really simple concept. I listed Bones of Ullr because it has the least impactful negative for a huge positive. You still gain life, es and mana, as well as some run speed. The numbers are not up there with awesome rares, but they are not supposed to be! You cannot get additional minions from rare items! That is a huge advantage. There has to be a trade off!
And as far as people throwing some of the summoner uniques away: One man's trash is another man's treasure. (I toss uniques right and left, too, but it doesn't mean they are not used in some builds)

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robmafia wrote:

so because i'm not conversing with mark (notice the lack of posts directed to him?) means that i shouldn't post in this thread?

statements like these help explain the wonderful insight i keep reading in this thread...

Since Mark is the developer that literally codes skills and has definitive answers on what works and how it works, and is the only GGG member actively posting, yes. Nobody but Mark has any influence on what will happen. The rest of this as to how and why spectres do/will work is 100% pointless noise, especially since it's been a retread of the same crap on each side for pages now.

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Archwizard wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

so because i'm not conversing with mark (notice the lack of posts directed to him?) means that i shouldn't post in this thread?

statements like these help explain the wonderful insight i keep reading in this thread...

Since Mark is the developer that literally codes skills and has definitive answers on what works and how it works, and is the only GGG member actively posting, yes. Nobody but Mark has any influence on what will happen. The rest of this as to how and why spectres do/will work is 100% pointless noise, especially since it's been a retread of the same crap on each side for pages now.

lolwut? so because i'm not specifically addressing mark, i shouldn't post? 95% of the posts in this thread AREN'T directly addressing mark. ...including YOUR posts.

hypocrisy, it's rampant.

further, mark thought that the +500 life that grasp provides 4 whole zombies is compelling enough to use only 4 zombies. NO ONE agreed. mark may be a developer, but that doesn't mean he knows how we play.

he didn't even know how people were computing the life/resist/etc numbers for minions.

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GoatEatingToilet wrote:

I listed Bones of Ullr because it has the least impactful negative for a huge positive.

and since you evaded my rebuttal that blew this out of the water, please explain which builds find losing 250 base ES (or 600 armor, etc), tri res, and movement speed to be "minimal."

because as far as i can tell, that's a MASSIVE drop for any build.

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robmafia wrote:

Spoiler

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SaiyanZ wrote:

Let me try explaining since you failed to comprehend over and over again in this thread.

irony - noun - ^ that.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

- You want 4 spectres active at once but with different supports for each of them. Say 5 supports each, but you just want to use one 6L to do this.

- Another player is melee and uses Dual Strike with multi-target supports and Double Strike single target supports.

this makes absolutely no sense and isn't even remotely comparable. the specter skill RAISES and retains 1-5 spectres (depending on gear/passives. wait, maybe 1-6...). if i run 5 spectres, each spectre is only 20% of the skill.

the dual strike is an attack. it... attacks. it's not a minion. your example is just plain absurd.

and it also doesn't even address the point - 4 (or 5, or 6) supported spectres is 4 supported spectres. they EACH get the same amount of links. they don't multiply. their links don't stack. there's no circumventing in this. if we can't use DIFFERENT supports for spectres, all it means is that we have no incentive, whatsoever, to diversify spectres. we'd have every incentive to run the type of spectre that's being most supported... 4/5/6 times. it's LESS diverse (and less fun) and more tedious - the OPPOSITE of the stated claim for this change.

you say it's not fair that a summoner gets supported spectres because of dual strike. this makes no sense and is 100% irrelevant. the active spectres are going to be fully supported, one way or another.

scenario : spectres in a 4L with minion life, minion damage, and raise spectre...

a 4L ranged spectre with gmp isn't any more powerful than a 4L evangelist with inc dur or a 4L necromancer with aoe or a 4L bear with faster attacks. using one of each is STILL only 4 4L spectres. they don't multiply. they don't combine their skills. there's no "9L" spectre or "11L chest" in this like someone fallaciously claimed.

there are no synergies, and they're not voltron. they don't combine into megaspectre with extra supports.

if we can't use different supports, everyone's going to use one type. that's it. it's simple. and it has nothing to do with dual strike... ever.

get ready to see any remaining summoner running nothing but evangelists... or whatever the token spectre of the patch is. diversity's dead. stick a fork in it.

using your logic, dual strike has an unfair advantage because it can be supported with a gazillion different gems, unlike portal. or auras. ...or RF. so unfair!

robmafia, you're dense.
You're awfully dense. You're amazingly dense.
Or either trolling. On purpose. Trying to defend abusive mechanic for own profit.

1) What if i tell you that when you're using Raise Spectre skill, 1 Spectre already IS 100%
And 5 Spectres are just 500%.
You can't understand this, and why it is so? Don't read further and don't even answer to my post

2) All those players tried to tell you that the thing you're trying to defense in a misleading way IS an exploit.
I'll try to describe it really simple for you.

a) You can summon 4 same spectres with A,B,C support gems.
They are 4-Linked spectres supported with 3 gems.

b) You summoned 1 spectre with A,B,C supports.
You switch supports.
You summon 2nd with D,E,F
You summon 3rd with G,H,I
You summon 4th with J,K,L
They are 4-Linked (indeed, no one argue with that) BUT "(3+3+3) gems' supported"
So, technically, (even if they did not inherit gems from one another) you can call them 12-Linked spectres. You gain an unreasonable profit.

It even contradicts in simple way of "why should you get benefit from something that you don't even have equipped anymore".

If you can't see how this is unfair in general - we have nothing to discuss, and again - don't try to answer and argue with this, all further attempts will be considered as "trolling" and "provoking"

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robmafia wrote:

you're right about the latter, though. i'll probably quit playing this, altogether.
if i don't find it fun after the changes, i obviously won't play...

Oh please, do this favor and quit right now
If you're not mad about the game (and don't worry about the latter) - so why are you still trying to defend snapshot and argue in this thread then?
You won't find fun after if you can't start thinking about it now.

P.S. and even more =)
What if i tell you that you can summon 4 different spectres without snapshotting gems? :D
Raise Spectre - Minion Life - Minion Damage - Life Leech\M.andT.Resistance\any 4th support gem
What? Oooh, you want 4 different spectres with completely different support. Please, do all those "linkage" in equipment and summon them. No one forbids...

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robmafia wrote:

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GoatEatingToilet wrote:

I listed Bones of Ullr because it has the least impactful negative for a huge positive.

and since you evaded my rebuttal that blew this out of the water, please explain which builds find losing 250 base ES (or 600 armor, etc), tri res, and movement speed to be "minimal."

because as far as i can tell, that's a MASSIVE drop for any build.

There is no use in replying to you because you do not see any reason other than your own. You want to have your cake and eat it, too. There is no point in arguing with someone who refuses to acknowledge there is another side (Yep, you totally blew my example out of the water considering how many summoner builds actually use Bones of Ullr. It is quite obviously an acceptable loss for some, just as the lack of spectre diversity will have to be).

I never stated that the loss of stats would be minimal, just the effort to gain addition spectres would be. If you want 250 base ES (or 600 armor, etc), tri res, and movement speed then that is fine, go grab a pair of boots that have those stats... but you will not be getting those extra minions. Is it really that hard to understand the concept of a trade off?

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oBLACKIECHANo wrote:

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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Promo1987 wrote:

Since a lot of current builds will get 'broken', I am going to assume a full respec is in order?

1.2.0, like our other major expansions, will include a one-time optional full passive reset. That's part of why 1.2.0 is a good time to release this change, since this will be occuring then.

We shouldn't have to respec because you fixed a bug, so RF hopefully will be getting buffed as a result

It's not the case .....

1.2.0 => major expansion => optional respec
1.2.0 => good timing for a snapshot removal

does not mean

snapshot removal => optional respec.


I shouldn't do that but ...oh well :

what people are saying is :

With snapshot, you can have one 6L chest, that produces 4 different spectres, each optimized with different support = you are basically using 4 different version of a skill ( = raise spectre obviously ), since it's been supported differently each time.
It's like someone would use a spell :
- AOE oriented ( 5 optimized supports )
- single target oriented ( 5 optimized supports )
- CC/defense oriented ( 5 optimized support )
- MF oriented ( 5 optimized support )
with one single item at the same time, which is obviously not possible, and thanks god it's not. It is however possible for minions = that's an obvious glitch that needs to be fixed.


anway, at the end :

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Archwizard wrote:

I suggest to all to stop letting robmafia dominate this thread. He's obviously not understanding/accepting the information he's been repeatedly provided. Mark has offered to discuss the issue in greater depth in private for the express purpose of letting this thread be about other people's questions / comments regarding the OP. Last I knew, robmafia has refused Mark's offer in favor of rabblerousing here. That in and of itself should send a pretty loud and clear message as to what robmafia's intent and goals are.

I look forward to potentially reading more between Mark and the community on this (long overdue) change.

^

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HarukaTeno wrote:

robmafia, you're dense.
You're awfully dense. You're amazingly dense.
Or either trolling. On purpose. Trying to defend abusive mechanic for own profit.

1) What if i tell you that when you're using Raise Spectre skill, 1 Spectre already IS 100%
And 5 Spectres are just 500%.

i'd say you're clearly wrong, and the tooltip supports that claim.

http://imgur.com/Rb3r8p9

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HarukaTeno wrote:

You can't understand this,

no, i understand that it's wrong.

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HarukaTeno wrote:

and why it is so?

...because it's wrong, and the game mechanics/tooltip explicitly state so.

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HarukaTeno wrote:

Don't read further and don't even answer to my post

boo-hoo. if you don't want a response, DON'T POST. it's logic 101.

What the hell ....

Bonuses are not split between zombie .... all the zombies ( or spectres ) get the equal bonus = 100% of it.

It's the same thing that if you have a 40 sec summon skeletons, summoning 6 skeleton instead of 2 will still last 40 sec, and not 40/(6/2) => 13.3 seconds.

Those are basic maths, that one learns in junior high school or before, it's just logic, if you still think that this is "wrong" ( strong argument you got there ) ... I can't help you there, and I don't think that there's even a point continuing this.

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GoatEatingToilet wrote:

There is no use in replying to you because you do not see any reason other than your own.

this, coming from the one that thinks allocating 16-30 passive points is only a 'minor' cost... and who thinks that losing GG boots to wear a 30 ES, 0 res, 15% ms boot is only a tiny drawback?

the added irony is that if you actually believed this, it's only incentive for EVERY character to run 3 spectres. clearly, that's not the case.

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GoatEatingToilet wrote:

You want to have your cake and eat it, too.

lolwut? if so, my bones of ullr would have 280 ES and double the movement speed. they don't, and that's not what i ever advocated. at all.

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GoatEatingToilet wrote:

There is no point in arguing with someone who refuses to acknowledge there is another side

...this is you.

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GoatEatingToilet wrote:

(Yep, you totally blew my example out of the water considering how many summoner builds actually use Bones of Ullr.

HOLY BACKPEDALING.

acceptable loss =/= "MINIMAL," your exact word.

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GoatEatingToilet wrote:

It is quite obviously an acceptable loss for some, just as the lack of spectre diversity will have to be).

lolwut? the two aren't even related! one is a CHOICE of gear. the other is being forced upon us by nerfing the mechanics to punish anyone who wants to run different spectres.

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GoatEatingToilet wrote:

I never stated that the loss of stats would be minimal,

MINIMAL WAS YOUR EXACT WORD! you said "With minimal investment"

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GoatEatingToilet wrote:

just the effort to gain addition spectres would be. If you want 250 base ES (or 600 armor, etc), tri res, and movement speed then that is fine, go grab a pair of boots that have those stats... but you will not be getting those extra minions. Is it really that hard to understand the concept of a trade off?

this is literally the OPPOSITE of your previous posts - you JUST argued that there ISN'T enough of a trade off and that the trade off is "minimal!"

you can't even follow your own argument!