GGGs reasoning on not making a SFL?

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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TheAnuhart wrote:

Finally.

A Scrotie post that hits the nail on the head without being laced with wild OTT generalisations and sly jabs. (yes I realise I'm as guilty at times).

These posts have been sorely missed, sir. (I don't think I've seen one since just after I spoke up for you in a SFL thread months ago, which was kinda 'WTF?')

*tips hat*

I'd only add, that I actually don't want to be as optimal as trading, I want the longevity, tedium, RNG, suboptimal synergies and all that shit that self found gives and trading removes/minimises. I'm perfectly happy to be taking the more resistant path with my exile, but right now it's not really a path at all.

Well thanks, but you do realize this means I see "self-found league" as roughly as sane a suggestion as "single-skill-spam-only league." It's a little sad that the latter is close to being the truth, but that's not the point; the point is that I'm against both.

As am I, I just empathise with the proponents (most of them) and strongly disagree with most of the anti-SFL people. Not because I want a SFL, but because the reasons given are BS.

Basically, neither 'we need a SFL' nor 'you can play SF already' will get the current leagues fixed. I empathise with the former because I know why they want it, the latter just boils my piss.

I haven't wanted a SFL since I realised about a year ago that it could never be what I would want it to be and satisfy even a small portion of people, too. I don't care for ladders, I don't want increased gear drops, I don't even want to start over (I can do that with my own restraints in current league), I want the game to change, not much, but enough to make SF more viable but still resistant, mostly at end game. And crafting, there's crafting, but I don't think that will ever be in the hands of the 'common man'.

Making trading a more enjoyable experience does absolutely nothing to alleviate why people are here wanting a SFL.

giv self foun pls

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TheAnuhart wrote:

Basically, neither 'we need a SFL' nor 'you can play SF already' will get the current leagues fixed. I empathise with the former because I know why they want it, the latter just boils my piss.

I haven't wanted a SFL since I realised about a year ago that it could never be what I would want it to be and satisfy even a small portion of people, too. I don't care for ladders, I don't want increased gear drops, I don't even want to start over (I can do that with my own restraints in current league), I want the game to change, not much, but enough to make SF more viable but still resistant, mostly at end game. And crafting, there's crafting, but I don't think that will ever be in the hands of the 'common man'.

How the fuck have we disagreed so much in the past? This has been my core message since OB times.

Maybe it's that I think people who DO trade aren't the Devil. I don't know.

I kind of agree that *pure* self-found is not a sufficiently optimal way to play the game from scratch. However, I do believe it's possible to play with severely limited trades — say, 5 per character, lifetime. (Yes, I pulled that number out my ass.) Potentially zero if rerolling and your earlier character got the goods, and you're willing to build around what dropped.

Orbs, to work as a currency, *need* to work better in the hands of the elite than the common man. The general trading flow of gear is elite to common; the general flow of currency needs to be from common to elite to compensate. This is something GGG probably realized during design. However, a positive slope on a graph can be 0.05 or 9001, if you catch my drift; gambling doesn't need to favor elites quite as heavily as it does. Naturally, GGG is afraid of accidentally overstepping and going negative-slope here; a valid concern, but at a certain point paranoia is paranoia.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Orbs, to work as a currency, *need* to work better in the hands of the elite than the common man. The general trading flow of gear is elite to common; the general flow of currency needs to be from common to elite to compensate. This is something GGG probably realized during design.

Well that sounds ok on paper, but problem is that in that theory elite are the people who play the top end content the most.

However in reality elite are the richest who trade(flip), RMT the most.
And anything that is rare (not just orbs) flow from common guys to elite.

GGG sets difficulty by making some things rarer (such as access to Atziri and crafting), but this difficulty is overcome by trading only. Grinding to overcome that difficulty is definitely not even close to trade.

SFL promotes one thing: Difficulty in the game is overcome by beating enemies.

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symban wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Orbs, to work as a currency, *need* to work better in the hands of the elite than the common man. The general trading flow of gear is elite to common; the general flow of currency needs to be from common to elite to compensate. This is something GGG probably realized during design.

Well that sounds ok on paper, but problem is that in that theory elite are the people who play the top end content the most.

However in reality elite are the richest who trade(flip), RMT the most.
And anything that is rare (not just orbs) flow from common guys to elite.

Not really.

I guess that's my fault for using inaccurate linguistic shortcuts. By "elite" I meant those who find marketable gear which isn't an upgrade for them, because they have better gear; by "common" I meant those with mediocre gear such that the marketable gear is an upgrade. Those with mediocre gear (generally) cannot use gear as a trading commodity to trade for better gear; if they had better gear, they'd just use it, and it wouldn't be an upgrade for the "elite" anyway. Orbs are needed as a commodity which the "common" can collect, and pass upwards in exchange for upgrades.

In reality, this is a tiered system; most traders function as "elite" to some segment of the population, while simultaneously "common" to another segment of the population. They collect orbs from those below them, and forward those orbs up the chain.

Flipping doesn't create items, at all. Items are created by either farming them directly, or consumption of orbs (gambling) — usually farming directly. This item eventually finds use among someone for whom it is an upgrade. So the basic flow is still there. Overall, the flow is still orbs from the people who need better gear, to the people who either find it for them, or gamble it for them.

I'm not saying there are not opportunities for flippers to insert themselves within that flow. They can function as middlemen between the gear's origin to its end destination (which is the same as saying: between the orb's origin and its end destination). They can eek out a profit in margins this way. Flipping, at its best, takes a percentage of overall trading traffic for itself; at its worst, it loses money on speculations which go wrong.

Flipping can't eek out a margin from a flow which doesn't exist. They are not the "elite" I was referring to in my post, because they are not an endpoint of anything — flipping's core nature is that of not being an endpoint of item usage. As I was saying originally, in order to connect the two endpoints, it's necessary for more developed, higher-level, better-geared players to get more utility out of orbs than the less developed, lower-level, less-geared players. Not necessarily orders of magnitude more utility, just enough to create a flow of orbs in the appropriate direction.

Nice explanation but it was not needed at all, it suffices just saying "Yea, by Elite I meant people with wealth".

What I said in previous post still stands valid: GGG created the main challenge in this game in the form of rarity. And this challenge is overcome easiest by a huge margin over other ways by trading.

SFL would offer a league where challenge has to be overcome by beating content. Simple and clear.

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symban wrote:

Nice explanation but it was not needed at all, it suffices just saying "Yea, by Elite I meant people with wealth".

Not what I was saying at all.

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symban wrote:

SFL would offer a league where challenge has to be overcome by beating content. Simple and clear.

It still does. Not necessarily any particular person beating content, but someone has to do it. Flippers cannot do their thing without farmers. If everyone flipped as much as you seem to believe, it would be a system entirely of middlemen without any actual producers; such a system cannot exist.

Also: flippers cannot do their thing without farmers allowing them to do it. After all, they're not the ones finding orbs, finding items, or gambling up new items (at least not while they're flipping); only non-trade activity can add new items to the economy. If everyone refuses to trade these items to the flippers, they have nothing to work with. They only have as much power as we collectively decide to give them.

Chances are that you are scapegoating flippers a little too much, and not really understanding how the core structure of the orb system works. More likely than not, your real issue is not with flippers but instead with the interaction between the design of the currency system and the behavior of the most no-life farmers. Remember that flippers are middlemen, which means: there is always someone behind them, someone they are also dealing with, whose economic behavior influences how the flippers themselves behave; your quarrel might be less with the employee and more with their boss. Well, more like general contractor and their client. Whatever. The point is, adding extra people to the chain doesn't change the fact that it's the end user's demand for orbs which moves your orbs through the economy.

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symban wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Orbs, to work as a currency, *need* to work better in the hands of the elite than the common man. The general trading flow of gear is elite to common; the general flow of currency needs to be from common to elite to compensate. This is something GGG probably realized during design.

Well that sounds ok on paper, but problem is that in that theory elite are the people who play the top end content the most.

However in reality elite are the richest who trade(flip), RMT the most.
And anything that is rare (not just orbs) flow from common guys to elite.

GGG sets difficulty by making some things rarer (such as access to Atziri and crafting), but this difficulty is overcome by trading only. Grinding to overcome that difficulty is definitely not even close to trade.

SFL promotes one thing: Difficulty in the game is overcome by beating enemies.

[Citation Needed]

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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symban wrote:

SFL would offer a league where challenge has to be overcome by beating content. Simple and clear.

It still does. Not necessarily any particular person beating content, but someone has to do it. Flippers cannot do their thing without farmers. If everyone flipped as much as you seem to believe, it would be a system entirely of middlemen without any actual producers; such a system cannot exist.

Pfff........

Who cares about what happens at a global scale, for every player game is limited to what they do. As long as YOU as the player can not overcome the challenge placed by GGG without trade not even remotely as efficient, nothing matters what happens at global scale.