GGGs reasoning on not making a SFL?

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byzrk wrote:

Another day, another SFL post. Wish GGG would just put an end to this and take a stance.

Agreed. An updated official post either stating that they are considering this or completely shooting it down would at least be welcomed by both sides.


Lately the only response we get from GGG is,


''Please refrain from antagonizing or insulting other players. Further posts of this kind may result in the player being placed on probation.''

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xxSerpentlordxx wrote:

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byzrk wrote:

Another day, another SFL post. Wish GGG would just put an end to this and take a stance.

Agreed. An updated official post either stating that they are considering this or completely shooting it down would at least be welcomed by both sides.


Lately the only response we get from GGG is,


''Please refrain from antagonizing or insulting other players. Further posts of this kind may result in the player being placed on probation.''

VenatorPoE posted a fairly recent statement regarding a SFL. You can't expect GGG to tell you every day how they feel about everything.

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Isbox1 wrote:

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Xavderion wrote:

Excuses everywhere :3

How is this an excuse? I'm detailing specifics as to why someone (me) doesn't race. It's educational. Like I said: I would be more inclined to race if they had X hr time limit per account and gave you X days to complete those hours of play.

As it stands it's completely pointless to race if you can only complete maybe 1 race in a month based on "their" current schedules. Someone who has no job can complete all races 1, and 2 they would also have the advantage of practice since they can hit every single event. System is totally skewed.


Typical Xav response though. Someone lays out the dynamics - the logic - the reasoning - and Xav posts a meaningless 1 liner.

No need to get mad bro, I'm just bantering.

im doing tons of races. not sure what this guy is talking about.
thats probably why im not posting here. playing the game and shit.

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Jojas wrote:

This is the fundamental difference between players who relish a trade-centric game and players who relish a drop-centric game. The former focus on the result (being able to play a specific build), while the latter focus on the "experience" (for lack of a better term).
So of course the latter will have a better time if the game gives them what they want.

It's the old 'journey and destination' thing. Some like the journey, others the destination.
Journey players may still like the destination (it is after all your goal), but just not want to get there quickly (or at least without skipping the scenery), I personally like to be ever approaching. Destination players pretty unanimously want to PoLR direct to the destination ASAP.

GGG devs were destination players. Their comments and indeed actions (and lack of) might suggest they are not aware of journey players, that or they don't want to be aware.

PoE is unique in that it has a 'dropped off half way and destination' model.

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Jojas wrote:

IF there were an SFL, the people would know that - without trade - being able to play builds that require very specific gear will take some time.
So under which circumstances would there be a "rain of tears" from people knowingly and willingly playing that league? And what would they say - "Oh, nobody told me that No Trade means that you cannot trade!!"?

Actually that would be another good thing about the SFL. That being able to play unique builds would be an actual accomplishment, something like a milestone.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

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Jojas wrote:

This is the fundamental difference between players who relish a trade-centric game and players who relish a drop-centric game. The former focus on the result (being able to play a specific build), while the latter focus on the "experience" (for lack of a better term).
So of course the latter will have a better time if the game gives them what they want.

It's the old 'journey and destination' thing. Some like the journey, others the destination.
Journey players may still like the destination (it is after all your goal), but just not want to get there quickly (or at least without skipping the scenery), I personally like to be ever approaching. Destination players pretty unanimously want to PoLR direct to the destination ASAP.

So what Jojas is trying to tell me is that, even with whatever drop modifications you envision for a SFL, the ability to acquire build-enabling uniques and rares with nice big numbers would be significantly diminished, and anyone who doesn't understand that going in would be a fool. And thus there won't be a lot of QQ.

Well, except for my being considerably more cynical about the foolishness of those who post in these forums, I actually agree with him. The only question is: which side of this argument is Jojas actually on? Did you switch sides when I wasn't looking, and just decided to adopt a very sarcastic tone?

Or have you really all convinced yourselves that increased drop rates for SFL are somehow not a "destination player" concern, to use Anuhart's term? I can only imagine the intricate web of rationalizations which would go into convincing yourself that the desire for increased drop rates and better crafting is not motivated by a desire to get better gear faster.

Once again, I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong to want better gear faster. It can be situationally wrong (often), or situationally right (rarely). I just find the self-denial amusing.

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Wazz72 wrote:

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Temper wrote:

Checkmark this character
No trade
Access to it's own stash only
no party
no item drop from inventory

I would support it!!

The only small concern I have is about the last point: I understand why you put it ( no trading by item dropping) and agree, my concern is about the skill Animate Weapon and how I it works - or the way I use it ( carry around a few weapons in my inventory and drop them as needed...), that - and Guardian - should be addressed.

Change last line to "items dropped from inventory are permanently allocated to the character which dropped them." By which we'd mean a truly permanent allocation — unlike the current incarnation, leaving the instance or logging out wouldn't allow others to pick the item up.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

intricate web of rationalizations which would go into convincing yourself that the desire for increased drop rates and better crafting is not motivated by a desire to get better gear faster.

I think Pro SFL people like myself need to be realistic that there are people who will think this way and will be disappointed with ANY SFL. By the same token Anti SFL people like yourself need to be realistic that there are plenty of people interested in the league who know what it would be like and DO NOT need to progress faster than the current leagues. The only exception to this is people who already never trade and see that the game would be better for them with a rebalance, but people like myself are already trading and getting everything we want. I have no need to acquire stuff faster because I am ALREADY doing that through clever trading. The motivation is to remove the easy trading and replace it with better crafting and perhaps slightly better drops, just to experience the game without the easy trading.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

So what Jojas is trying to tell me is that, even with whatever drop modifications you envision for a SFL, the ability to acquire build-enabling uniques and rares with nice big numbers would be significantly diminished, and anyone who doesn't understand that going in would be a fool. And thus there won't be a lot of QQ.

Well, except for my being considerably more cynical about the foolishness of those who post in these forums, I actually agree with him. The only question is: which side of this argument is Jojas actually on? Did you switch sides when I wasn't looking, and just decided to adopt a very sarcastic tone?

Or have you really all convinced yourselves that increased drop rates for SFL are somehow not a "destination player" concern, to use Anuhart's term? I can only imagine the intricate web of rationalizations which would go into convincing yourself that the desire for increased drop rates and better crafting is not motivated by a desire to get better gear faster.

Once again, I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong to want better gear faster. It can be situationally wrong (often), or situationally right (rarely). I just find the self-denial amusing.

I actually have a completely different version of PoE in mind that has nothing to do with a separate self-found league, but which would count for all leagues. One which never will happen but which I believe could satisfy both kinds of players:

- An un-tradable "trading-orb" which enables you to make a trade. Without one you could only trade other orbs. About as rare as a chaos orb the number you would need to make a trade would depend on the level requirement of the gear you want to trade.

- A greater likelihood for useful mid-tier+ affixes (defense, life, ES, resistances and especially dps enhancing ones on weapons). A much greater likelihood for rare monsters to drop rare gear. Top-tier affixes remain rare.

People would still be able to trade for specific items but they would have to pick and choose. This in itself would give the game additional depth. At the same time people who enjoy the "voyage" would be able to do so without the mind-numbing tedium of endless grind.
All the while, with gear with top-end affixes and rare uniques staying as rare as they are now there would still be enough carrots for everyone.
In my opinion this would solve the supposed problem of: unlimited trade + good drops = people get bored and leave.

I'm not sure how you got the impression that I would want "the ability to acquire build-enabling uniques and rares with nice big numbers to be significantly diminished". I think you misunderstood my post quite severely. And I was not being sarcastic.

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Jojas wrote:

I actually have a completely different version of PoE in mind that has nothing to do with a separate self-found league, but which would count for all leagues. One which never will happen but which I believe could satisfy both kinds of players:

- An un-tradable "trading-orb" which enables you to make a trade. Without one you could only trade other orbs. About as rare as a chaos orb the number you would need to make a trade would depend on the level requirement of the gear you want to trade.

- A greater likelihood for useful mid-tier+ affixes (defense, life, ES, resistances and especially dps enhancing ones on weapons). A much greater likelihood for rare monsters to drop rare gear. Top-tier affixes remain rare.

People would still be able to trade for specific items but they would have to pick and choose. This in itself would give the game additional depth.

Cute idea. Unfortunately, not a good one.

First, having a trading orb drop for nontraders, ironically, forces trading. Now nontraders feel obligated to get some value out of it by trading it away. It's worth noting that, thanks to poe.xyz.is, it's pretty safe to say that currency trades are more annoying than gear trades.

Second, this goes against my entire philosophy on why trading should exist. Remember how I was talking about how trading with other players is just like trading with yourself, except the other players are doing the rerolls for you? Well, for players who either start or fall behind — perhaps they join the league late, or they have real-life issues and don't play much — this gives them an opportunity to catch up on the ladder. You know how you tend to twink new characters you roll after you've already established higher-level characters? That's exactly what happens to players who are behind. They get access to decent twink gear in high supply at low cost, and are able to catch up with the competition and rise up the ranks of the ladder.

It's very egalitarian, and it benefits the progression of those at the bottom ("this weapon should be awesome until level 40 or so") far more than it benefits the progression of those at the top ("yay, another chaos"). The best part of the trading system is the small trades, not the big ones. As such, an orb which taxes trades will almost assuredly punish small trades more than large ones, and thus is an idea which would cause more harm than good.

The truth about trading is that it benefits the casuals and those who have actual lives outside of PoE far more than it benefits those who play all the time. Yes, there are some who flip and get rich that way; but they only get there because other traders are stupid. Assuming equal trading advantage, trading is a system for the common man, not a system for the elite.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Jojas wrote:

Spoiler

I actually have a completely different version of PoE in mind that has nothing to do with a separate self-found league, but which would count for all leagues. One which never will happen but which I believe could satisfy both kinds of players:

- An un-tradable "trading-orb" which enables you to make a trade. Without one you could only trade other orbs. About as rare as a chaos orb the number you would need to make a trade would depend on the level requirement of the gear you want to trade.

- A greater likelihood for useful mid-tier+ affixes (defense, life, ES, resistances and especially dps enhancing ones on weapons). A much greater likelihood for rare monsters to drop rare gear. Top-tier affixes remain rare.

People would still be able to trade for specific items but they would have to pick and choose. This in itself would give the game additional depth.

Cute idea. Unfortunately, not a good one.

Spoiler

First, having a trading orb drop for nontraders, ironically, forces trading. Now nontraders feel obligated to get some value out of it by trading it away. It's worth noting that, thanks to poe.xyz.is, it's pretty safe to say that currency trades are more annoying than gear trades.

Second, this goes against my entire philosophy on why trading should exist. Remember how I was talking about how trading with other players is just like trading with yourself, except the other players are doing the rerolls for you? Well, for players who either start or fall behind — perhaps they join the league late, or they have real-life issues and don't play much — this gives them an opportunity to catch up on the ladder. You know how you tend to twink new characters you roll after you've already established higher-level characters? That's exactly what happens to players who are behind. They get access to decent twink gear in high supply at low cost, and are able to catch up with the competition and rise up the ranks of the ladder.

It's very egalitarian, and it benefits the progression of those at the bottom ("this weapon should be awesome until level 40 or so") far more than it benefits the progression of those at the top ("yay, another chaos"). The best part of the trading system is the small trades, not the big ones. As such, an orb which taxes trades will almost assuredly punish small trades more than large ones, and thus is an idea which would cause more harm than good.

I highlighted a major problem in the way you interact. You find something you don't think is good, then proceed to make it a fact, and write a wall of text which proves the idea is terrible. Then you post it, and keep responding the same way, over and over again. How about this for a change: you review the idea, say your opinion about it, then instead of disregarding it completely, pointing out what could be changed/added/dropped out. Your posts would be much more valued and people wouldn't consider you hostile/butthurt all the time.