Yeah something's clearly off and even though I really like the skill it's pretty unplayable. Typically I will
1) Click a mob
2) My shadow will run up to him and start swinging
3) Nothing happens to the guy I clicked
4) 5-10 swings later after occationally hiting and killing most of the mobs around him
5) I reposition and click the mob again
6) Eventually everyone's dead
And this is with 86% chance to hit at 33k dps. The same pack I would typically run up to and smack once or twice with double strike + melee splash at far lower dps.
Exactly this. Even if the tooltip DPS is superior than other skills+melee splash it takes longer to kill mobs cause of this.
Aside from that, the charge duration feels too short- it seems to be about one second. Extending it to two seconds would make it better, I think.
Actually, it already is two seconds.
We did experiment with other skills not loosing the stages, but it wasn't as good.
well, i guess 3 seconds would be better cause if your looking at an item you're going to loot (and you loot it) it takes about 1 1/2 seconds so you only have like 0.5 seconds to run to the next mob which is like impossible...
imo the skill shouldnt loose all stages at once, going down stage by stage seems fair to me...
Any plans on making so that your char won't move to attack a location when it's within range of Reave? I mean sure I can do that right now using shift, but it seems weird that you need to move right into melee range of the location just to hit it with a Stage 8 Reave.
try clicking the general area by the mob, not actually the mob, and if you have 8 stacks and are in range it should fire off. Takes a little getitng used to, but that combined with shift, skill gets easier to use with some practice.
paper dps is one thing - real world application is another
reave sux badly at real world applications - mainly due to desync (you cant aim at all if monsters ARE in other places than the places you think they ARE). other reason is that while people think about how cool 8stack version is truth is that mostly you have 0 stacks when attacking a fresh pack. this cuts DEEPLY into paper dps
also melee splash has the benefit of not needing to aim. reave to take full effect has to have like 3-4 targets in the cone. hardly possible (due to desync and monsters surrounding the player) when there are 4 enemies chances of all 4 being in the cone is 0. while at the same time chances of all these being in the melee splash radius is 100%. just test it NOT in fellshrine and see how badly this skill works with current desync issue.
thats why paper dps of reave is worthless. it is the sunny day scenario (that does not happen at all). fix the desync and make timer like 3 seconds or so and then it will have some kind of merit. now people are using it and claiming nice results but mostly these are people with like 500$ in gear that can make Auto Attack do 10k DPS. in real world this skill sux. even if you replace reave with other gem + melee splash you will still get better skill in real world applications. paper dps is just that - paper dps. one would have hoped that cyclone is enough for people to ignore paper dps.
my ideas:
- timer can be modified with inc duration gem and passives
- monsters in the cone have 2x stun duration
this will still make it bad due to desync but at least some people would use it (for reasons other than to be 'cool'). cleave or dual/double strike+melee splash is currently better in all real world applications by a long shot so why bother?
You get eight stacks of the same increase, namely 20% More Radius. 20*8 = 160%, so x2.6.
Incinerate works the same, but with damage instead.
I know that if Reave is following its tooltip it would only give 2.6 factor, but there may be bugs, that's why I asked for specifically practical experience.
People are being very ignorant about dual wield weapon alternating skills. I guess it's natural that whining is simpler than thinking.
Let me show you how you make the most out of it. Here's a few quick pointers about Reave:
Only works with Daggers, Claws and One Handed Swords.
When dual wielding, alternates between weapons if both weapons are one of the above.
If not, only hits with appropriate weapon.
This doesn't mean that non-appropriate weapon is as good as nothing. All global modifiers (Attack Speed, Global Crit, Increased Elemental Damage, Resistances, Stats etc.) apply to the attack, and that includes modifiers from your "stat stick" weapon.
Now, take a look at this beauty that costs 1 Alch:
50% Increased Attack Speed
30% Fire Res
30% Lightning Res
Damage sucks but who cares, Reave doesn't hit with Maces so only the damage from your other weapon counts. Also saves from having to get two godlike weapons.
Now suddenly the argument is whether a Shield is better than 10% MORE Attack Speed, 50% Increased Attack Speed and bunch of resistances.
And it doesn't end here. That's just one example of a weapon. You can use anything depending on build, a good rare, Supreme Truth for ele builds, even Soul Taker.
I've got two builds that could effectively use Reave, one of which is Dual Wielding.
So, I went and stacked all these DW damage/block nodes and what do I have to show for it? Well, This.
But I have something to surprise people with, even more than Brightbeak. That's This sucker right here:
You notice, Reave is meant to work with claws. So, with this claw you could run a low life build and have 10% MORE Speed, 25% INCREASED Speed, 100% INCREASED damage, and 100% INCREASED Accuracy.
Let's say you have two really good claws. 300 DPS each. If you gave it a cleave-like effect you're looking at what 30% decreased damage on the weapons? 210DPS each now, and together they give your 420DPs.
With Last Resort and a Single 300DPS claw, You're looking at around 600DPS for the main claw. Since the skill alternates though, that crummy 50dps from last resort is added into the mix and it makes it terrible.
The issue everyone has with the skill isn't that it doesn't use both weapons, it's that the skill -alternates- if it had a cleave like effect or it just used the main hand weapon it'd be much better. The alternating effect forces you to have two powerful claws/daggers/swords or to go with a single weapon and a shield.
So for those who've built for Dual wielding, Reave is bad, even though it was said to be "compatible" for Dual Wielding when it was teased.
Until Reave is "Fixed" Dual Wielders should use Brightbeak, definitely, or perhaps an awesome mace or something. Sadly, Last Resort seems perfect for Reave, but the mechanics prevent it from being useful currently.
GGG you have the ability to make this skill amazing while still being very balanced in comparison to other skills and support combos. I trust the right decision will be made.
Sorry, but while Last Resort's Claw Physical Damage effect works, Brightbeak will do absolutely NOTHING for you. The attack speed increase on brightbeak is LOCAL, not global. So you will essentially be wearing it for the double resist, which is better done on a shield (which you can actually get HP/ES on).
paper dps is one thing - real world application is another
Paper dps is as good as your calculations are, you can approximate for most of real (world?) situations if you try hard enough.
In case of using Multistrike (and the point of this skill is attack speed) you can go well over 10 attacks per second getting you to max charges in less then a second, and you don't need even half of them to surpass splash radius.
So...
If you take, let's say 8 hits to kill an enemy and you reach splash radius in 4 hits you can count on having less radius then splash half the time and more than it for the rest of it so it comes out pretty much even. Now, if you don't kill all enemies in those 8 hits due to positioning or size of the pack (which would happen pretty much to all melee area skills) for the rest of the fight you have double the aoe of splash.
Which draws to a conclusion... If you can kill the whole enemy group by the time you reach max stacks Reave comes to be about as good as Dual Strike Splash to you, area-wise. If you take less to kill them it's worse and if it takes more it becomes better. And I'd like to see the melee skill hat can wipe the whole screen of enemies in a second.
Now if only the hits with the damn thing would register properly...
EDIT:
Just to clarify, it was an arbitrary example to illustrate the point, Reave probably doesn't have twice the area of splash at max charges. Radius IS much larger but since it's cone versus circle I'd guess the final area isn't all that bigger. Might be best if some screenshot were taken and compared at leisure.
Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs.
People are being very ignorant about dual wield weapon alternating skills. I guess it's natural that whining is simpler than thinking.
Let me show you how you make the most out of it. Here's a few quick pointers about Reave:
Only works with Daggers, Claws and One Handed Swords.
When dual wielding, alternates between weapons if both weapons are one of the above.
If not, only hits with appropriate weapon.
This doesn't mean that non-appropriate weapon is as good as nothing. All global modifiers (Attack Speed, Global Crit, Increased Elemental Damage, Resistances, Stats etc.) apply to the attack, and that includes modifiers from your "stat stick" weapon.
Now, take a look at this beauty that costs 1 Alch:
50% Increased Attack Speed
30% Fire Res
30% Lightning Res
Damage sucks but who cares, Reave doesn't hit with Maces so only the damage from your other weapon counts. Also saves from having to get two godlike weapons.
Now suddenly the argument is whether a Shield is better than 10% MORE Attack Speed, 50% Increased Attack Speed and bunch of resistances.
And it doesn't end here. That's just one example of a weapon. You can use anything depending on build, a good rare, Supreme Truth for ele builds, even Soul Taker.
I've got two builds that could effectively use Reave, one of which is Dual Wielding.
So, I went and stacked all these DW damage/block nodes and what do I have to show for it? Well, This.
But I have something to surprise people with, even more than Brightbeak. That's This sucker right here:
You notice, Reave is meant to work with claws. So, with this claw you could run a low life build and have 10% MORE Speed, 25% INCREASED Speed, 100% INCREASED damage, and 100% INCREASED Accuracy.
Let's say you have two really good claws. 300 DPS each. If you gave it a cleave-like effect you're looking at what 30% decreased damage on the weapons? 210DPS each now, and together they give your 420DPs.
With Last Resort and a Single 300DPS claw, You're looking at around 600DPS for the main claw. Since the skill alternates though, that crummy 50dps from last resort is added into the mix and it makes it terrible.
The issue everyone has with the skill isn't that it doesn't use both weapons, it's that the skill -alternates- if it had a cleave like effect or it just used the main hand weapon it'd be much better. The alternating effect forces you to have two powerful claws/daggers/swords or to go with a single weapon and a shield.
So for those who've built for Dual wielding, Reave is bad, even though it was said to be "compatible" for Dual Wielding when it was teased.
Until Reave is "Fixed" Dual Wielders should use Brightbeak, definitely, or perhaps an awesome mace or something. Sadly, Last Resort seems perfect for Reave, but the mechanics prevent it from being useful currently.
GGG you have the ability to make this skill amazing while still being very balanced in comparison to other skills and support combos. I trust the right decision will be made.
Sorry, but while Last Resort's Claw Physical Damage effect works, Brightbeak will do absolutely NOTHING for you. The attack speed increase on brightbeak is LOCAL, not global. So you will essentially be wearing it for the double resist, which is better done on a shield (which you can actually get HP/ES on).
I have found this to be true.
Last edited by guamlegend#1693 on Aug 22, 2013, 6:14:27 PM
Friend let me play this, but wow this skill is badly designed -_-. Down with the hopes...
When it 1st was brought up I specifically asked if multi-strike will be the the balance point. What did GGG do, they balanced it around multistrike. Multistrike attack speed bonus is OP, faster attacks with a lot of attack speed from tree are in awe staring at multistrike.
Multistrike killed any other form of ats scaling as it now always considered in balancing. This is some poor design choices made on multistrike, ats and also reave. Again an melee aoe skill that scales better with increases aoe dmg nodes (than bitch about skill can be filled in after this).
I saw it coming, what is there to say? Back to my hiatus o/
Last edited by Ozgwald#5068 on Aug 22, 2013, 6:04:07 PM
