GGG has given up on meaningful combat?

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Burn4#0434 wrote:

If the broader gaming audience actually liked the chaotic, off-screen one-shot mechanics of the original game as much as you think, the player numbers would reflect that. It doesn't. Mindless, screen-clearing map blasting is exactly why the franchise stays isolated to a hardcore niche. The reality is that the casual audience wants actual visual clarity and mechanical interaction, not a zoom-zoom stat-check simulator where mechanical skill doesn't matter. That specific design friction is exactly what keeps the player base limited.

Why are POE and diablo SO gigantic compared to games like grim dawn and no rest?

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the player numbers would reflect that. It doesn't

But they do.
Congratulations, you have successfully defeated your own argument.

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JODYHiGHR0LLER#6171 wrote:

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Burn4#0434 wrote:

If the broader gaming audience actually liked the chaotic, off-screen one-shot mechanics of the original game as much as you think, the player numbers would reflect that. It doesn't. Mindless, screen-clearing map blasting is exactly why the franchise stays isolated to a hardcore niche. The reality is that the casual audience wants actual visual clarity and mechanical interaction, not a zoom-zoom stat-check simulator where mechanical skill doesn't matter. That specific design friction is exactly what keeps the player base limited.

Why are POE and diablo SO gigantic compared to games like grim dawn and no rest?

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the player numbers would reflect that. It doesn't

But they do.
Congratulations, you have successfully defeated your own argument.

Nothing to do with zoom zoom. When I first played PoE1 it wasn't like this. What people always praised poe for and what it is iconicly known for is the build creation. Which ironically suffers from the homogenization of gameplay via screen clearing and instant boss kills. There is 0 real argument for zoom zoom.

Also Diablo and PoE had the advantage of being through the first games of the genre. PoE being carried by the build stuff. Most other ARPGs devolve into lots of zoom zoom too yet they aren't nearly as popular. It's a disingenuous argument. As you guys typically do.

No Rest comes in a market with already established big players. It did very well for itself so far considering every other ARPG release around it and the EA tag. Also a lot of people like the more genetic graphics PoE has. It even survived the negative reaction of the PoE1 zoom zoom mob.

Also player numbers do reflect that, if you listened to the devs on interviews... most people give up before they reach endgame. And it isn't because there wasn't enough content.

They've already nerfed overall defense, damage, and crafting several times. Now, reaching T1-T5 maps will be harder. What more do you need? Remove crafting from the game entirely? Have everyone running around in white gear?

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IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

Nothing to do with zoom zoom. When I first played PoE1 it wasn't like this. What people always praised poe for and what it is iconicly known for is the build creation. Which ironically suffers from the homogenization of gameplay via screen clearing and instant boss kills. There is 0 real argument for zoom zoom.

Also Diablo and PoE had the advantage of being through the first games of the genre. PoE being carried by the build stuff. Most other ARPGs devolve into lots of zoom zoom too yet they aren't nearly as popular. It's a disingenuous argument. As you guys typically do.

No Rest comes in a market with already established big players. It did very well for itself so far considering every other ARPG release around it and the EA tag. Also a lot of people like the more genetic graphics PoE has. It even survived the negative reaction of the PoE1 zoom zoom mob.

Also player numbers do reflect that, if you listened to the devs on interviews... most people give up before they reach endgame. And it isn't because there wasn't enough content.

The free-to-play model is the exact reason GGG grew Path of Exile purely on its own merit. Making the game free removed all friction, and organic hype brought millions of players into the game risk-free.

PoE also had a massive advantage because it came out right when the ARPG market was completely dead. In 2013, Diablo 3 was facing severe backlash because of the real-money auction house. Stranded fans jumped ship to PoE overnight because it was a free, deep alternative. That free entry barrier let the game build a massive player pool that a niche ARPG otherwise could never reach.

But getting players in the door is only half the issue, and the zoom-zoom meta is the single biggest bottleneck holding PoE2 back from becoming a truly massive game. If GGG actually focused on meaningful combat where mechanical skill, positioning, and boss design matter more than a stat-check spreadsheet, player retention would skyrocket. The game would keep a massive percentage of that traffic and see a huge wave of returning players every single league.

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Burn4#0434 wrote:

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The free-to-play model is the exact reason GGG grew Path of Exile purely on its own merit. Making the game free removed all friction, and organic hype brought millions of players into the game risk-free.

It also launched into a market with zero real competition. In 2013, Diablo 3 was facing severe backlash, leaving millions of hardcore ARPG fans completely stranded. PoE filled that void perfectly. The entire frustrated ARPG community migrated to Wraeclast overnight with zero financial risk, building a massive player pool that a niche game otherwise could never reach.

But getting players in the door is only half the issue, and the zoom-zoom meta is the single biggest bottleneck holding PoE back from becoming a truly massive game. If GGG actually focused on meaningful combat where mechanical skill, positioning, and boss design matter more than a stat-check spreadsheet, player retention would skyrocket. The game would keep a massive percentage of that traffic and see a huge wave of returning players every single league.

You're so right about the F2P model. I can't believe that didn't cross my mind. It's also one of the reasons why I started playing it back then when I had no income to buy and play other things.

Indeed, if they put a lot of focus on actually fixing the combat, which was specifically why they've said they separated the two games... player retention would look much more like that of other top F2P games out there. Sure, there will still be dips between updates.. but not nearly at the same level it gets now. And many more would come and stay too.

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Owlert#7729 wrote:

I challenge anyone to name a game with good combat and bosses that ever expects you to fight five random ones at the same time. There's no real way to approach that style of encounter without just waiting until you have a build strong enough to insta-kill. And if the map bosses are that soft and irrelevant, then the gameplay for the vast majority of play hours might as well not exist. At least before, I could self-limit my power with stuff like HCSSF and blue-item-only self-challenges, but now that stuff like Rite of the Nameless is required to prog the Ritual pinnacle, Citadels might spawn two bosses at once, and Delirium mirrors map bosses, that's not really an option.
What happened to the 0.4 Q&A where they talked about being able to really scale into effectiveness on the upcoming Atlas tree? Surely GGG doesn't think that a few dozen effectiveness% from explicit mods on maps is enough after seeing juiced temples also get annihilated.
Genuinely the most disappointing change I've seen since starting PoE1 in 2013, not because Ritual can't be avoided, but because it suggests the pitch for meaningful combat was a total bait-and-switch. The game still peaks in Act 1, and it seems like everything that makes Act 1 so good GGG considers a mistake.

so you want act 1 through to t16 maps and beyond to look exactly like act 1? Same mob density, same speed, same power. Can't get too much AOE, can't go too fast, can't spam any skills....
sounds boring

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IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

Indeed, if they put a lot of focus on actually fixing the combat, which was specifically why they've said they separated the two games... player retention would look much more like that of other top F2P games out there. Sure, there will still be dips between updates.. but not nearly at the same level it gets now. And many more would come and stay too.

Exactly, and that links right back to why PoE2 exploded during its Early Access release. People were willing to pay upfront for a game that will eventually be free purely because it was sold on the idea of a completely new, mechanically superior game. Every single gameplay reveal, like the early Warrior videos, focused entirely on methodical, combo-based combat where you actually had to engage with enemy mechanics to win.

Even with the brief endgame previews before launch, people bought in because they had faith in a fundamentally changed game. Millions of players paid upfront because they hoped the endgame would be just as meaningful and tactical as the campaign they were shown.

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Burn4#0434 wrote:

Exactly, and that links right back to why PoE2 exploded during its Early Access release. People were willing to pay upfront for a game that will eventually be free purely because it was sold on the idea of a completely new, mechanically superior game. Every single gameplay reveal, like the early Warrior videos, focused entirely on methodical, combo-based combat where you actually had to engage with enemy mechanics to win.

Even with the brief endgame previews before launch, people bought in because they had faith in a fundamentally changed game. Millions of players paid upfront because they hoped the endgame would be just as meaningful and tactical as the campaign they were shown.

nah bro I bought POE2 because I was getting bored of D4 and Last Epoch. The graphics looked next level and there was marketing behind it which gave a sense of FOMO to gamers who otherwise wouldn't get hooked on ARPGs.
I had played POE1 years earlier but that had no effect on my decision to purchase.

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Burn4#0434 wrote:

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IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

Indeed, if they put a lot of focus on actually fixing the combat, which was specifically why they've said they separated the two games... player retention would look much more like that of other top F2P games out there. Sure, there will still be dips between updates.. but not nearly at the same level it gets now. And many more would come and stay too.

Exactly, and that links right back to why PoE2 exploded during its Early Access release. People were willing to pay upfront for a game that will eventually be free purely because it was sold on the idea of a completely new, mechanically superior game. Every single gameplay reveal, like the early Warrior videos, focused entirely on methodical, combo-based combat where you actually had to engage with enemy mechanics to win.

Even with the brief endgame previews before launch, people bought in because they had faith in a fundamentally changed game. Millions of players paid upfront because they hoped the endgame would be just as meaningful and tactical as the campaign they were shown.

I still remember how they were doing interviews with content creators outside the PoE1 space and how all of them were excited for the better combat and proper bossing and such.

I also still remember how much people liked the difficulty of early campaign in 0.1. It was very much the highlight of 0.1. Nobody cared about the shitty zoomfest endgame part. And everyone complained about the disconnect between the early feeling and endgame... and not because everyone wanted early game to feel like that endgame lol.

The funny part is, not even the zoom zoom crowd liked the endgame... because it didn't have enough "CoNtEnT". Another thing that I find really annoying from these people... they somehow expect a new release to have the same amount of bloated content like a 13 years old game? Seriously? Even Mark pointed that out in a more subtle way in the latest interview with Ghazzy and DM.

To me it feels like these people just want the most amount of slop content they can play as fast as possible which can give them the fastest amount of cheap dopamine hits from drops, and then move on to the next thing that fits that same criteria. It's why I call this the tiktok mentality. Cheap, instant gratification.

Combat? No, I want to skip combat. Campaign? No, I want to skip campaign. Bosses? No, I want to skip bosses.

Just look at how they're reacting to that crafting change too. And don't get me wrong, I too think that crafting should be more deterministic... it's why it is called crafting and not gambling. But that's not why these people are upset about it... it's all about the power loss. That's why they're so upset about it.

In everything they ask for, it's literally the same pattern. Instant gratification.

They want it FAST, they want it NOW.