POE2's Broken Team Looting: 46x Rewards, and GGG Risks Following Amazon Games' Fate

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Mizenkailash#2794 wrote:

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tsunamikun#0433 wrote:

So twich tracks dropped loot from all sessions and posts statistics of it somewhere? Please show that link.

It doesn't need to track stats when an average brain can draw an educated conclusion based on the availability of purchasable currency on farming websites within hours of a new season.

so thats a no then? and a strawman too? wow. now we left twitch and supposivly farming websites are the indicator of this mysterious x46 group multiplicator.
and within an hour too. protip: stop with the hyperpole. either you have arguments and hard data or you don't.
The op doesn't, and you seem to think the economy was proken because of groupplay when everyboday and their mom knew is was because of the temple and that insanly stupid idea of them blocking most players from building it when a minority could cheeese currency. And no 0.3 and before wasn't nearly as bad. Hopefully GGG learns from that clusterf*k of a season and will never do that again.
Btw a good player will always have no problems with genreating enough currency to build their gear. And a casual will never be able to, independent of nerfs or buffs to groupplay. You are just that much slower and less efficient in everything.

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tsunamikun#0433 wrote:

The op doesn't, and you seem to think the economy was proken because of groupplay when everyboday and their mom knew is was because of the temple and that insanly stupid idea of them blocking most players from building it when a minority could cheeese currency.

Absolutely not. What? Why do you think we had people spamming chat throughout the entire league with "LF LEECHER! MY LOOT/YOUR XP"? Because group play is so busted you can abuse 5 semi-AFK noobs just running around doing nothing to boost your own loot drops to insane levels. As I recall, 40d per Temple run on the low end.

It was more like 20, and that doesn't in any way show group play is busted. The bonus for grouping is less than each player would make if they did the same content solo. In situations like this where one person keeps 90% of the loot then that person makes more, sure, but all the leechers make less than they would have had they spent the time soloing their own broken temples instead.

It's a multiplayer game, and the group loot bonus already doesn't balance out to 100%^ of what each person would have made soloing the same content. Reducing that would be actively penalizing people from having friends and guilds and playing together.

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AbyssianOne#1625 wrote:

Reducing that would be actively penalizing people from having friends and guilds and playing together.

As it should. You are already making the content way easier for you. PoE is one of the few games I know that massively reward you for playing in a group, lol. That's backwards design. It doesn't even have linear monster scaling.

Just by playing in a group of 3, you are already only getting +100% normal HP, +120% magic HP, +160% rare HP and +200% boss HP. Yet you are also getting +22% IIQ for each player, which is not a shared loot pool.

On top of that, the original monster HP values are used to determine ailment application, so you are having an even easier time freezing enemies and proccing Heralds via the aura support in your group. You are delusional if you think partying poses more downsides than upsides.

The incentive of playing with friends already comes in the form of wanting to play with friends in the first place. There's no reason not to remove the IIQ and also not add way more monster HP. A full party of 6 should expect boss HP to be x10, not x6 as of currently.

Here, take it from the Last Epoch devs who seem to have a pretty clear idea of how party scaling should work:

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Will there be incentives to party with other players?

We want the decision of playing with others to depend on whether you like spending time adventuring with other players, and try to steer away from it being a much more efficient way to beat content or get loot. Besides having an organized or synergistic team that can defeat enemies faster than a solo player, we are not planning to incentivize parties with additional rewards.

From what I know, there are no loot bonuses at all and everything is instanced. As it should be. The fact that PoE 1/2 even has an MF culler meta is ridiculous in and of itself.

What are you talking about "not a shared loot pool?" It is a shared loot pool.

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tsunamikun#0433 wrote:

gibberish

Protip #1: If you're trying to lend some credibility to your post by using words like "strawman" and "hyperpole" (that second one got a laugh from me), I'd recommend using proper spelling and punctuation.

Protip #2: If you read the thread, you'll see that I've already said that his arbitrary multiplier of 46 is total BS. However, there is still a group bonus, and it takes a miniscule amount of brainpower to conclude that farmers are exploiting it. Asking for "direct evidence" is akin to being intentionally ignorant.

Any gamer with even a little experience knows that farmers will use any loophole (along with automation/macros/multiboxes/etc) to increase profit, since many of them are average Joe's just trying to put food on the table. That's why Blizzard and other companies pour countless dollars into trying to counteract farming. Or are you really so innocent that you don't think farmers are using group loot to increase their income?

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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KaosuRyoko#1633 wrote:

What are you talking about "not a shared loot pool?" It is a shared loot pool.

It is not. Allocation is not loot pool. I.e. your chances of getting a HH as a natural drop would not be any higher or lower with more players around, if it weren't for the added bonuses. Each player has their own drop chances and loot can be allocated to each player, but the latter is not a must and merely restricts who can pick the items up.

Edit: To be clear, there would otherwise be no need for an MF culler if the loot was multiplicative and fully shared.

I let ChatGPT do a quick math check on this, so here it is simplified:

Over 1000 kills, a solo player with 6x the base drop rate of an item with 1% drop chance will, on average, drop 60 of those items.

By comparison, a 6-man party with the 51% party bonus will drop, on average, 87.3 items over 1000 kills.

That is 6% vs 6x 1.51%. And let's not forget that a full party can be much quicker at getting those 1000 kills. On top of that, I'd like to see a solo player reach +500% IIQ. I only used it for a hypothetical.

The massively inflated solo IIQ aside, a solo player, at base level, would have to kill at least 9 enemies for every 1 enemy the group kills. In basic terms, you'd need about 9x the clear speed to match a 6-man party. And that's just with default values, no IIQ or IIR accounted for. Good luck with that.

We may not be on the same page with the term shared loot pool here. I understand it to mean that whatever loot is generated has to be divided amongst the players in the party. Which is how PoE works.

The part I think you may be understanding incorrectly: When a monster is killed, there is only a single roll on the loot table and the rarity multiplier calculated based on the single player that dealt the killing blow. There is not a roll on the loot table per party member, nor any addition of each members rarity.

Allocation is separate you are correct, and were not talking about that.

I still don't understand the rest of your math. Where did you get a 6x drop rate modifier from? Where did you get 87.3? I'm guessing 6x is a theoretical player with +500% quantity intended for the sake of comparison? That isn't possible in game afaik, since quantity =/= rarity. Even if you have 500 rarity on your character sheet we know that diminishing returns hit their apex around 150, so 500% in your character is most likely less than half of the shown value. In either case, there's no need to add arbitrary multipliers to make this comparison:


My math of killing 1,000 monsters (for simplicity assuming no gear rarity anywhere) becomes:

Solo:
1,000 kills x 1% item/kill = 10 items

Party:
1,000 kills x 1% item/kill x 1.51 multiplier = 15.1 items

15.1 / 10 = ~1.5x items in a group than solo

After splitting the loot: (7 or 8 players if you have a crafter and trader in your group, but skipping that for now too.)

15.1 items / 6 players = ~2.5 items/player


Each player is getting ~2.5 of these 1% drops in a party, while solo they would have had ~10.

Outside of the case where you have 5 people willing to leech and take no loot (which of course was a catastrophe in Temple, but that's an extreme outlier), or the case where you mutlibox with input duplication cheats (which are against ToS), playing in a party is petty much worse for profit from every angle I can find.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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KaosuRyoko#1633 wrote:

The rest of your math I think falls apart because it looks like you are bashing it on a roll per party member, not a single roll for the whole party.

Not sure what's hard to grasp about the basic math involving a 6-man party, that is not even abusing MF, vs a solo player. That is how it currently works. The 1% drop rate was the only thing made up because you need something to roll for statistics. The rest I pulled straight from the wiki page.

If you want to add in actual MF, the scaling gets even more nuts. Far worse. That 46x loot claim might not even be too far off, considering the base values are already a ~9x multiplier in overall loot. And yet people still bring in that dumb af argument about splitting the loot by 6.

Was editting that reply, it has been updated.

No idea where you're looking 9x from here either.

That first line in your image tells me that either:
A) You are still claiming each single monster kill has a separate loot roll per player.
B) You are implying each player is killing 1,000 monsters, so you're comparing 1,000 monsters killed by a solo to 6,000 monsters killed by a party.

Both are incorrect, which makes your subsequent math cary the inaccuracy.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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KaosuRyoko#1633 wrote:

A) You are still claiming each single monster kill has a separate loot roll per player.

It literally does for whoever gets the kill. Hence why MF cullers are a thing. That is the question I asked and that is what ChatGPT calculated for.

Even if they say fuck MF and all go blasting, they will clear the map faster than you, get more overall kills than you, have 6x the rolls for valuable loot, and thus also get vastly more overall loot than you. The key here being each player having their own drop chance rolls.

I'm not sure what is the problem here.

Loot rolls one singular time per kill based on one singular players rarity. That is why MF Cullers/Gravebind bots work - because only the player that is counted as getting the killing blow is used for calculating the drops, so you have the high MF character hey kill credit so their rarity applies. It absolutely does not multiply the killing players rarity bonus 6 separate times. 1 single monster killed = 1 single loot roll.

The first line of probability math you showed, literally says you're calculating it as if each player rolls a separate roll for every single kill.


Yes there are other scaling vectors for parties that affect the math and bring it closer to solo ROI, and in most efficient cases somewhat past it most likely. But your math is so fundamentally wrong it's not even worth mentioning those.