twitch streamers conspire to nerf casual players

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Elua#0230 wrote:

Solution is very simple: give SSF 10x better ground drops and 10x more simple and deterministic crafting ( current PoE crafting = casino roulette for whales and stremers btw ) And block SSF transfers. Then this constant trade disasters and abuses will be less important.

Last Epoch approach to SSF.

Please no. All I want in SSF is not to be gated from game content by rng balanced around trade.

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Strickl3r#3809 wrote:

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gr0o0ve#1473 wrote:

Top tier bait.


Casual players devalue most games they infect, we have at least a decade of evidence for this now. Most serious players have the correct opinion because they play to the point of finding problems you may never knew existed because you don't play for long enough.

no they don't, they keep a game fresh. You want people to casually try out your game, otherwise it's gonna be deadge soon.Probably 170k out of 180k players on league start are casual players. Without them the game will be dead soon. That doesn't mean the game design should cater to casuals. But the way you put it, casuals are sth bad to the game, which they are not for obvious reasons.

Casuals fill seats, and if casuals leave ggg/poe won't die, they have said as much.

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gr0o0ve#1473 wrote:

Top tier bait.


Casual players devalue most games they infect, we have at least a decade of evidence for this now. Most serious players have the correct opinion because they play to the point of finding problems you may never knew existed because you don't play for long enough.

Another way to look at this is that serious players play long enough that things that are absolutely not problems become problems. Not every system or gameplay loop survives 1000's of hours but is great before then.

I've played a lot btw.

Twitch streamers are only nerfing casual players in that they give one hand (providing the builds) and take away with the other (nerf it because its busted, also why its the build).

There is no conspiracy there its the price you pay for relying on an external source to provide the most important piece of an ARPG so either pay it willingly and accept or rebel and do your own thing but don't complain that they do all the work for you but also think its dumb because its too strong.

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Nubatron#4333 wrote:

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gr0o0ve#1473 wrote:

Top tier bait.


Casual players devalue most games they infect, we have at least a decade of evidence for this now. Most serious players have the correct opinion because they play to the point of finding problems you may never knew existed because you don't play for long enough.

Another way to look at this is that serious players play long enough that things that are absolutely not problems become problems. Not every system or gameplay loop survives 1000's of hours but is great before then.

I've played a lot btw.

Right and that means casual players get a game that lasts thousands of hours, for free and with guided content. I wonder how long a WoW expansion lasts these days?

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gr0o0ve#1473 wrote:

Right and that means casual players get a game that lasts thousands of hours, for free and with guided content. I wonder how long a WoW expansion lasts these days?

Unless it is changed because it breaks down after a ton of play. Casuals enjoy it during the period before the system breaks down is my point.

I'm not saying changes should not be made; I'm just saying that there is more nuance to some of these discussions and playing a ton versus playing casually does not provide a better perspective....just a different one.

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Nubatron#4333 wrote:

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gr0o0ve#1473 wrote:

Right and that means casual players get a game that lasts thousands of hours, for free and with guided content. I wonder how long a WoW expansion lasts these days?

Unless it is changed because it breaks down after a ton of play. Casuals enjoy it during the period before the system breaks down is my point.

I'm not saying changes should not be made; I'm just saying that there is more nuance to some of these discussions and playing a ton versus playing casually does not provide a better perspective....just a different one.

Do we have any games in the last decade that stuck to it's dedicated player base as much as PoE? Trying to think, most games seem to turn into corporate slop that listens to the fairweather customers over it's original base.

The other question would be can and will casuals provide valuable feedback? Casuals by nature won't bother thinking deeper and just move onto the other flavour of the month.

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gr0o0ve#1473 wrote:

Do we have any games in the last decade that stuck to it's dedicated player base as much as PoE? Trying to think, most games seem to turn into corporate slop that listens to the fairweather customers over it's original base.

The other question would be can and will casuals provide valuable feedback? Casuals by nature won't bother thinking deeper and just move onto the other flavour of the month.

Conflating casual with fair weather players is a mistake. There are players here that play when they can which isn't often, but have been here just as long as you and I.

Casuals provide feedback from the perspective of a casual. That's always valuable. Just like feedback from non-casuals is.

GGG can do what they like with that feedback.

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Nubatron#4333 wrote:

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gr0o0ve#1473 wrote:

Do we have any games in the last decade that stuck to it's dedicated player base as much as PoE? Trying to think, most games seem to turn into corporate slop that listens to the fairweather customers over it's original base.

The other question would be can and will casuals provide valuable feedback? Casuals by nature won't bother thinking deeper and just move onto the other flavour of the month.

Conflating casual with fair weather players is a mistake. There are players here that play when they can which isn't often, but have been here just as long as you and I.

Casuals provide feedback from the perspective of a casual. That's always valuable. Just like feedback from non-casuals is.

GGG can do what they like with that feedback.

I was separating the two different groups as i do think casuals can be loyal, the distinction needs to be made so we don't call them tourists again (dumb nomenclature).

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gr0o0ve#1473 wrote:

Top tier bait.


Casual players devalue most games they infect, we have at least a decade of evidence for this now. Most serious players have the correct opinion because they play to the point of finding problems you may never knew existed because you don't play for long enough.

Professional players also often make suggestions that benefit them or their playstyle.

infinity wars, a digital tcg, decided to include the top players in design decisions. What happened? They pushed for mechanics that were clearly overpowered while downplaying how strong they were to the devs. It created a very stale meta that helped propel the game to it's downfall.

Also consider that casual players are the largest percentage of the player base. While I don't think a game should cater to them, as you can lose that depth that makes it so fun, it shouldn't ignore them either.

Catering to any one group is a terrible design decision.