Mass Ban people who exploit currency so bad it trashes the economy.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

It's 100% GGG's fault if there is a way to make exponentially more currency one way than another. It's the players expertise that catches this and rewards them. Like every one of us playing the game: we seek the best loot. They just do it better and faster.

As I don't play PoE2, I don't really know about the current issue, and I don't really care.

And I agree; It's 100% GGG's fault. But this whole "there are no exploits. Everything in the game is there to be taken advantage of, sooner than later - before it's being patched"-attitude is stupid.

There have been countless of exploits in PoE1. All of them GGG's fault. That doesn't mean there hasn't been issued bans and large banwaves of people systematically exploiting said exploit.

The line from GGG has always been "common sense"; if this is something you THINK is intended, use the mechanic for what it's worth. If this is something you think might be an oversight from us - and not intended to be taken advantage of, don't exploit it, because you might get banned.

Now, lets use that logic: Is the current "issue" in PoE2 intended to be taken advantage of, or is it a direct oversight/mistake from GGG? Will this "mechanic/opportunity" be there next league? Is it good for the game? Is it INTENDED?

GGG would be wise to set the record stright here from the get-go, and do everything they can to not create the same attitude amongst players as we see in PoE1. If it's not intended, say so publically and ban everyone taking advantage of it after the warning.

But we all know they won't. PoE2 numbers are to precious. They don't have the balls.

you want to ban peoples for being tester in early access game which is a early access test? he he


it doesn't work both ways either the game is an early access or it isn't

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Phrazz#3529 wrote:

But we all know they won't. PoE2 numbers are to precious. They don't have the balls.

It would be hard to deny it can play a role in the decision. On top of that the "EA" tag can also have some weight.

But I don't think it even requires to consider those above points.
PoE is a game of numbers, where you can find cool interactions and multipliers (a bit less like that in PoE2 where we are way more on rails).

Where do you draw the line ?
When is it a clever find, and a cool use of game mechanics. When does it become an exploit.
When is it a reward for the efforts to decode the mechanic and when is it abuse.
Some cases creating items out of thin air are clear, but most of the time it's not.
Some of the coolest builds in PoE1 appeared out of "non-intended" mechanics. I remember those as "daaaaaaamn, that's cool" (eg wardloopers) rather than "ban the heretics" moments.

It's on GGG to adapt and keep things in the control they think is necessary through patches, but imho, at no point there should be punishments for things using correctly the mechanics. Grey areas should be cleared and we move on.
First because I think it's silly to punish players for playing and deepdiving your creation, but more importantly because I don't want to play wondering if I should feel smart or scared for a ban.

I just want to have fun doing cool/crazy shit.

yeah, just next time expolit like others and u are fine ;)

Was investing time, trying to gather divines for temporalis but i just cant with this economy. Yeah i should just play like others if there is no penalty for that.
In this case it was obviuos not inteded interaction if u need low level char for this... comeone ppl

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rob_korn#1745 wrote:

Where do you draw the line ?
When is it a clever find, and a cool use of game mechanics. When does it become an exploit.
When is it a reward for the efforts to decode the mechanic and when is it abuse.
Some cases creating items out of thin air are clear, but most of the time it's not.
Some of the coolest builds in PoE1 appeared out of "non-intended" mechanics. I remember those as "daaaaaaamn, that's cool" (eg wardloopers) rather than "ban the heretics" moments.

I don't really care where they draw the line, but I do think there should be one.

Builds are builds. Overpowered builds come and go, and as far as I know, no one has ever been banned for creating an overpowered build, be that wardloop, herald/aura stacking in Delirium or whatever.

The economy is something completely different and massive exploits affect ALL players, directly and indirectly, and alter the gaming experience for everyone. That's why it's so VERY important to preserve it. And we all know GGG's stand; higher level, harder content should yield the best rewards. When the best rewards are found by doing low level content, and "everyone and their grandmother" are making alts to take advantage of it, the "common sense" alarm should go off. Well, at least for everyone with said common sense.

But hey, with an "I, me, myself and my gains"-attitude, there's no wonder.

Disclaimer; I still don't know the current "exploit", and I'm only talking generally.

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Phrazz#3529 wrote:

I don't really care where they draw the line, but I do think there should be one.

Builds are builds. Overpowered builds come and go, and as far as I know, no one has ever been banned for creating an overpowered build, be that wardloop, herald/aura stacking in Delirium or whatever.

The economy is something completely different and massive exploits affect ALL players, directly and indirectly, and alter the gaming experience for everyone. That's why it's so VERY important to preserve it. And we all know GGG's stand; higher level, harder content should yield the best rewards. When the best rewards are found by doing low level content, and "everyone and their grandmother" are making alts to take advantage of it, the "common sense" alarm should go off. Well, at least for everyone with said common sense.

But hey, with an "I, me, myself and my gains"-attitude, there's no wonder.

Disclaimer; I still don't know the current "exploit", and I'm only talking generally.

I do not care where is the line either, you missed my point. It's more about the fact that the "line" is a 3km wide zone, and risking being punished for it ^^

That's what I meant : it's not easy to draw the line before hand, so people shouldn't be punished for grey zones.
As we agree, it's on GGG to clear that up.

Builds are builds, fair enough, I'll take other examples :
Is it ok to spam first lab for gems when you can do it 2 by 2 at higher level ?
Is it ok to spam first lab with my 90 level character just because it's quicker and I can faceroll ?
Is it ok to give my div cards with a level 4 character because it gives me higher chance for jackpot ?
Is it ok to block my character below 69 so that I can buy contracts endlessly ?
Is it ok to spam low level maps because I can get better and more beasts than at higher level ?

etc. etc.

This is the kind of stuff that is being currently told so much as "exploit". That's not exploit, it has been there in both games in different forms (PoE2 beetle was the same story), it's only up to GGG to say "this is OK", "this is not".

Common sense is not defined either. You can't issue punishments over common sense.
Bobby playing 5hours a week, never seen a divine, would think a 10div stack is cheating. Kevin 20h/day, finds 3mirrors per league, isn't even stopping for a click worth less than a divine. Their thresholds are obviously not the same.

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Phrazz#3529 wrote:

I don't really care where they draw the line, but I do think there should be one.

That's an unacceptable response on this topic. You MUST care where the line is, because that is precisely what you are arguing about. Otherwise, you are arguing nothing except fomo.

It is so easy to say all the things you wrote IN HINDSIGHT. But in the moment it becomes much harder to justify anything you wrote. How are we as the player supposed to know that something that is incredibly rewarding (and almost always NEW).....not working as intended? Are we supposed to just ignore it arbitrarily? Punish ourselves out of rewards when the entire point of playing the game is rewards? That is a ridiculous thing to claim, that can be applied to nearly every mechanic that offers more rewards than another....at any time.


If you CANT draw the line clearly, then there is no line to be drawn. Because it ISNT ever going to be clear. Because its a GGG problem.

We aren't talking item duping here or the Sanctum "exploit" which involved opening separate instances. Those are TRUE EXPLOITS, doing something outside of "normal gaming" to gain a reward. Easily seen, easily proven, easily preventable. Same with that bugged div card scry exploit. These are rare and deserving of punishment if exploited.

But anything that is a BALANCE issue is 100% on GGG and absolutely no one should be banned, punished, or thought of as anything other than simply playing game given to them.



You can argue this pseudo-moral high ground stance....but its absolutely impossible to quantify into a "rule". Ultimately this is a game where you attempt to maximize your loot. If every single player has to worry that they may or may not inadvertently be banned because they found a way to get a lot of loot, that is a massive problem. That quite literally IS the game itself.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

That's an unacceptable response on this topic. You MUST care where the line is, because that is precisely what you are arguing about. Otherwise, you are arguing nothing except fomo.

Totally wrong and quite frankly a very bad take.

I, personally, don't care where they set the bar - as long as they set it and make it transparent and clear - and that they keep enforcing it, systematically. And no matter where that bar is, I as a player can adapt to it, because it's clear and transparent.

I can't possibly see how that is "unacceptable".

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Phrazz#3529 wrote:

I can't possibly see how that is "unacceptable".

Because it ignores.....everything. You are trying to take the easy way out, backdooring yourself out of the hole you dug.

The only thing you claimed is that the line was "common sense": tell me....what is this "common sense" line exactly? How much loot? What proportion? In what way is that loot obtained? What EXACTLY is going against this "common sense" line?

You are trying to avoid taking responsibility for any of that by saying you don't care. Yet you do....because you brought it up. And you said there MUST be a line. So where is that line? Make it fit uniformly to everyone and any overly rewarding future situation.

Because you are talking about BANS. You are talking about directly punishing players for playing the game. And you yourself alluded to the fact that there needs to be consistency and transparency BEFORE any punishments. Well...where are they?

"common sense" is absolute nonsense.

That's why your response is unacceptable.

Quick Example:

I got 3 divines from the tree this league before I hit maps. That is exceedingly OUT of the ordinary when it comes to pre-map loot. Naturally, I continued to use lavish gifts and the tree hoping for more. Am I now at risk for a ban for exploiting an unusually rewarding content? Was my experience an outlier? Was it the norm? Is it truly outside the norm? Is it not? Should I have immediately ignored the league content for fear that I am exploiting something? Do I need to check in with someone every single time I think I've received rewards beyond what they "should be" based on arbitrary nothingness?

Do you see how UNFAIR "common sense" can be?