Zoom vs engagement is a false dichotomy; we need options for both

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Kalistri#2788 wrote:

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Everything_is_taken#0515 wrote:

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Xzorn#7046 wrote:

How many turns do you feel it should take to kill a boss on average?

No one is going to say 3 turns. That's silly and unfulfilling. You hardly engaged with the boss or any mechanics.

That's your perception. There are people who want their character min-maxed to tho the point they can ONESHOT the boss. It shouldn't happen on day one or not even on week one, but it should be possible at some point - a month in? With a massive budget spent on gear and heavy time investment.

Imho it should always be possible to go find a challenge at any level, no matter how strong your character is. I don't like the idea that at some point everything is easy and there's no challenge any more. To me that's basically the opposite of a reward.

Interesting view but Im worried that will ruin season’s cycle concept. I think ideally you have to reach that state at the end off season, enjoy it for a while and start again with new season…

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yetyzyma#6701 wrote:

Interesting view but Im worried that will ruin season’s cycle concept. I think ideally you have to reach that state at the end off season, enjoy it for a while and start again with new season…

Well, think about Delve in PoE 1. It's possible to push the difficulty up endlessly, and people just keep going and going with it, but not everyone. It doesn't ruin the cycle for everyone, it's just available for those who want it. It's an option.

All we need is the ability to defeat the arbiter and finish the endgame questline, and then some method by which you can keep pushing the difficulty if you want. Most people won't, just like most people won't go for depth 1000+ in Delve, but the option is there for those who want it.

Choices aren't going to ruin things for anyone unless they just don't like other people being happy, lol.

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Kalistri#2788 wrote:

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yetyzyma#6701 wrote:

Interesting view but Im worried that will ruin season’s cycle concept. I think ideally you have to reach that state at the end off season, enjoy it for a while and start again with new season…

Well, think about Delve in PoE 1. It's possible to push the difficulty up endlessly, and people just keep going and going with it, but not everyone. It doesn't ruin the cycle for everyone, it's just available for those who want it. It's an option.

All we need is the ability to defeat the arbiter and finish the endgame questline, and then some method by which you can keep pushing the difficulty if you want. Most people won't, just like most people won't go for depth 1000+ in Delve, but the option is there for those who want it.

Choices aren't going to ruin things for anyone unless they just don't like other people being happy, lol.

Sorry I don’t know that concept from Poe1. Never play poe1 longer than couple of minutes.

But it is very interesting concept at all. Not for everyone for sure (not for me also).But Im ok with that choice option.

Hard to understand that whole discussion when you were outside a bit. My problem with the game was, that in 0.2 difficulty aspects were nerfed into the ground. I felt 5 div were enough to see all content (and get to 95-97) after being slowed down a few days with trials and the weird map progression system back then. I still don't get the point to upgrade a weapon from a few div to mirror tier if it doesn't enable me different content or at cleast recognizable clear speed. At least one of them should be gated behind gear. And because it doesn't seem like that I simply don't touch that game anymore.

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Kalistri#2788 wrote:

I think it was the ZiggyD interview where Mark said that he wanted to make it possible to adjust things a lot more with the atlas, and this is the kind of thing I've been advocating for for a while now.

Ultimately with the right options available on the atlas tree it should be possible that those who want to be able to blast through screens of enemies without pause and those who want to fight for their lives in every encounter, and everyone in between could all be happy.

I'm sick of seeing this argument over and over. GGG, we need the ability to adjust stuff like monster damage, health, pack size, etc for ourselves, such that both sides of this argument can get the game they want.

I agree totaly with you. Everyone should be able to play how he like and i'm very happy they're considering it for 0.5.
I want to be swarmed by tought monsters personaly =)

If someone like weak but a lot of monsters, it's them right to have it. If someone like tough but low density monster it's also them right. And if they want both, let them have it.

As long as they balance rewards as much as they can i dont see why we need thoose eternal debats on "what is good or not good to play like".

People tend to forget they're advocating for everyone to like them own playstyle as if it was the only "right" taste to have.

A good game offer choices for everyone taste.

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cavexs#4102 wrote:

Hard to understand that whole discussion when you were outside a bit. My problem with the game was, that in 0.2 difficulty aspects were nerfed into the ground. I felt 5 div were enough to see all content (and get to 95-97) after being slowed down a few days with trials and the weird map progression system back then. I still don't get the point to upgrade a weapon from a few div to mirror tier if it doesn't enable me different content or at cleast recognizable clear speed. At least one of them should be gated behind gear. And because it doesn't seem like that I simply don't touch that game anymore.

How would you feel about it if you could adjust the difficulty of content to make it more and more challenging until it requires mirror tier gear at some point? So it wouldn't be different stuff per se, but at least you can change things to the level of challenge you prefer?

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Darosius#3984 wrote:

Slow is boring, zoom or "feel like a god" is way better.

What WE need is for MANY weak builds to also be zoom compatible. So that we can try out lots of new builds.

Cool, there's a game for you, and it's called poe1. Maybe you should check it out some time!

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Kalistri#2788 wrote:

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cavexs#4102 wrote:

Hard to understand that whole discussion when you were outside a bit. My problem with the game was, that in 0.2 difficulty aspects were nerfed into the ground. I felt 5 div were enough to see all content (and get to 95-97) after being slowed down a few days with trials and the weird map progression system back then. I still don't get the point to upgrade a weapon from a few div to mirror tier if it doesn't enable me different content or at cleast recognizable clear speed. At least one of them should be gated behind gear. And because it doesn't seem like that I simply don't touch that game anymore.

How would you feel about it if you could adjust the difficulty of content to make it more and more challenging until it requires mirror tier gear at some point? So it wouldn't be different stuff per se, but at least you can change things to the level of challenge you prefer?

I don't mind going back to 0.1 state and making the game slower but punishing. I even feel the whole thing is designed to be punishing and if that element is taken away then you can also just remove any penalty such as xp loss and stuff. But since every patch goes into the direction of goldfish playing Pokémon then why would you care about some people zooming around. To be fair, if people that like current state of the game provide way more money then GGG does everything right, I am just one of that persons (minority or not, cannot tell) that thought 0.1 was the best patch so far.

On the other side I am not a fan of just scaling difficulty through toughness or tiers like in Diablo. I would prefer something like pinnacle bosses not being able to farm at all without a solid investment but being at current state after some. Then you can also leave maps in current state and add some t17 modifiers if you feel like. But that means the whole damagescaling needs to be reworked and also defences have to be actually way more impactful to make that work. I don't see any of that coming but since this is a feedback forum and I am interested in GGG having success on the long run (so that I can play the other PoE) I think it's also important to tell them who actually is the playerbase right now and who is not.

Edit: To provide an example. If you challenged Xesh't in t4 in 0.2 you had to kill him(?) within 25 seconds+- with a bleed build because otherwise the overlapping abilities took over and you were just dodging without too many chances to attack. This was the only time I had to upgrade my weapon to one that cost me 3 div. He then died within 10 seconds and was able to do exactly one ability within that time. So everything tells me that the fight was not designed to be challenging or lasting. It is/was near to impossible to kill him by skillfully playing mechanics for 2 minutes. All it needed was a bare minimum of investment. But what comes after that? Maybe simulacrum, but that's it. I felt the trials to be more challenging than pinnacles with more or less random gear. And maps were more hindered by movementspeed than damage. You can correct me if something changed, but that is what I mean by not seeing a point to get any better gear since I don't care if bosse live 7,12,20 seconds or I oneshot mobs with 200k or 2,5 million dps in maps while not having any chance to clear them faster.

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Kalistri#2788 wrote:

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

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Kalistri#2788 wrote:

I think it was the ZiggyD interview where Mark said that he wanted to make it possible to adjust things a lot more with the atlas, and this is the kind of thing I've been advocating for for a while now.

Ultimately with the right options available on the atlas tree it should be possible that those who want to be able to blast through screens of enemies without pause and those who want to fight for their lives in every encounter, and everyone in between could all be happy.

I'm sick of seeing this argument over and over. GGG, we need the ability to adjust stuff like monster damage, health, pack size, etc for ourselves, such that both sides of this argument can get the game they want.

The problem is, once the slow-people see the zoom-people makes x10 more currency than them they will cry out and demand nerfs for zoom-people :(

Meanwhile the zoom-people can't give a shit about what the slow-people do with their build.

It's a slow-people problem. Forcing everyone to play at their pace, or ELSE.

Lol. I appreciate that the very first response I get is basically an us vs. them style response.

Suppose combos become really strong, such that they do way more damage than spamming anything. Then t15 monster health and damage and whatever else is increased, such that the highest difficulty in the game is actually difficult and to get through them you gotta be careful, use combos, be tactical and methodical. If you want to zoom through a map, you gotta go to a lower tier but you get less loot. Are you happy to let people do their combo gameplay as long as you get to zoom in lower level maps with less loot?

Of course not, don't be ridiculous.

Stop trying to make this us vs them. With this kind of thinking, we would get something in the middle where no one is happy and everyone keeps arguing over this bs over and over.

Let's imagine instead a situation where you can adjust the difficulty and loot in t15's, such that both kinds of players get roughly the same loot, but everyone can get the experience they want. Hopefully GGG can see that this would be the best path.

+1, thats the solution.

Still, some ppl dont want that. They want to zoom every single content in the game and ruin any type of gameplay that involves depth

Aren't we have that?
Poe1 and poe2.