Halowed Palm Nerf 0.4.0

This Hallow Palm Nerf....

with the changes to hallowed palm being now 75 Evasion for 1% more attack speed instead of 25 Evasion for 1% more attack speed, i present before you with this non-sense change.

The way Hallowed Palm works is that you have Evasion and/or Energy Shield on gear
( and only helm, body, gloves, boots ) that give you stats to your unarmed and quarterstaff skills. in where a set number of points gives you a rewarded stat of more attack speed or flat crit strike chance.

I was not able to clear end game content on this before hand and now the attack speed will just make this worse. the per 25 evasion was great for what it was because you were able to make up for the lack of weapon stats... its not worth a +6 staff with more than 300 damage. NOT EVEN CLOSE, now its 75 per 1% more? is there some form of scaling that makes up for 300% harder to get stats? yes its 200% harder to get the same level of change. POE1 and POE2 have rarely made this form of change and many thing that warrent this form of change are server breaking and client breaking? was 11 attacks per second to much to calulate at end game for a maxed out evasion only build?

who ever does the math for hallowed palm did not try this out clearly.

MORE-AS___AS/EV___BASE AS___EVASION___TOTAL MORE%___ACTUAL AS
1.01_______75______1.6_______6743______90.80___________3.1482946
1.01_______25______1.4_______6743______272.41__________5.2138408

6743(ish) Evasion is max if not very close to cap Evasion that Hallow Palm can get as usable evasion from gear with out some crazy investment in to 30% quality and just staying at 20%. this does include every rune at a +1 corrupt for the socket and maxed slots of the gear type.

DIFFERENCE?
-39.62% attack speed

and if the armor/evasion or evasion/energyshield?
-26.01% attack speed (both)

this is a -26% to -39.6% damage change in the form of attack speed. with a good form of investment you could get 5 attacks a second but capped out maybe 7 on full evasion and 5 on hybrid. this is severly lacking if you go the armor/evasion route as the energy shield portion lack there of is not helping you out as the monk is where this is even remotly useful in pathing terms.

the nerf was too big for a 1.6 attack speed adjustment base from 1.4 to be viable.
for a 13% faster attacks and a 200% harder stat to reach the same as before as 25 goes in to 75, 3 times.

I could see adjustments to this but a nerf was not needed. there should be some more justifications on why this change was made. But this is not allowing any one to live out there unarmed fantasy that was clearly said in a video about the introduction about this in the 3rd edict video.

but you know if you really support this change then let them know or if you find this change not acceptable then post about it here.

I mean that's some pretty good mathing, and if this is all correct im with him on this one. OP gets my vote.

There literally were HP builds where you break DMG tooltip display with how much damage you could get.

GGG clearly dont want people to zoom around with abilities.
Neither they want you to stack stuff with 30 attacks per second.

You will have closer to 30% less attack speed on very-high-end, whilst having more attack speed in the campaign.
Still fine imo.

the problem in campaign is at least that you need 30% more evasion at 1042 to get the same as the old 750 evasion. the Hallowed Palm still a lot slower. and to get that much gear evasion is still hard to get on solid evasion. This is way more noticable in maps.

end of act 4 your evasion count on gear is on average 1244 this is only 16.58% more attack speed where as before you would have 49.76% at the end of act 4 and this felt really good considering you did not have a weapon and chose to go in to straight evasion rather than split Evasion/Energy Shield

GGG needs to fix this before launch of 0.4.0 as this is a fun way to play the game as the attack speed part of this is not the way this needs to be nerfed, there are other parts if there was some game breaking interaction, address that instead of nerfing the hit portion that enables more builds. they need to fix end point calculations and not build defining properties.

"

KrashKourse#1823 wrote:

the problem in campaign is at least that you need 30% more evasion at 1042 to get the same as the old 750 evasion. the Hallowed Palm still a lot slower. and to get that much gear evasion is still hard to get on solid evasion. This is way more noticable in maps.

end of act 4 your evasion count on gear is on average 1244 this is only 16.58% more attack speed where as before you would have 49.76% at the end of act 4 and this felt really good considering you did not have a weapon and chose to go in to straight evasion rather than split Evasion/Energy Shield

GGG needs to fix this before launch of 0.4.0 as this is a fun way to play the game as the attack speed part of this is not the way this needs to be nerfed, there are other parts if there was some game breaking interaction, address that instead of nerfing the hit portion that enables more builds. they need to fix end point calculations and not build defining properties.

Yeah, I tried making a thread similar to this but unfortunately it's not going to get much traction simply because HPM was an underplayed build that a few players took, tinkered with and made it great. It was amazing on a very high investment and felt fun to play, but I guess someone at GGG saw those videos and decided it goes against the "vision" of the game.

And yeah, I guess that's fine if you look into the balancing decisions in isolation, but then you read the patch notes and realise Rhoa / LA / Deadeye supremacy is still as prevalent as ever and it just stops making sense right then and there?

And for reference, HPM build will still be viable and usable but for high end investments it will just be people going for crit cap, as opposed to attack speed builds. In a game where agency is supposed to be promoted and build diversity decisions like this just stick out like a sore thumb and don't make sense, or at least not to me anyway..

"

KrashKourse#1823 wrote:

the problem in campaign is at least that you need 30% more evasion at 1042 to get the same as the old 750 evasion. the Hallowed Palm still a lot slower. and to get that much gear evasion is still hard to get on solid evasion. This is way more noticable in maps.

end of act 4 your evasion count on gear is on average 1244 this is only 16.58% more attack speed where as before you would have 49.76% at the end of act 4 and this felt really good considering you did not have a weapon and chose to go in to straight evasion rather than split Evasion/Energy Shield

GGG needs to fix this before launch of 0.4.0 as this is a fun way to play the game as the attack speed part of this is not the way this needs to be nerfed, there are other parts if there was some game breaking interaction, address that instead of nerfing the hit portion that enables more builds. they need to fix end point calculations and not build defining properties.

But you know Base Attack speed is inreased, which is pretty significant, considering any mod will affect it? Campaign gonna be faster. 0.4 Is nerfing only endgame HP, which is fine imo.
Don't panic. Pre-release forum topics are just clownfiesta mostly.
I know that, because I got baited into it in 0.3 release.
Just wait and see.

"

Evergrey#7535 wrote:

"

KrashKourse#1823 wrote:

the problem in campaign is at least that you need 30% more evasion at 1042 to get the same as the old 750 evasion. the Hallowed Palm still a lot slower. and to get that much gear evasion is still hard to get on solid evasion. This is way more noticable in maps.

end of act 4 your evasion count on gear is on average 1244 this is only 16.58% more attack speed where as before you would have 49.76% at the end of act 4 and this felt really good considering you did not have a weapon and chose to go in to straight evasion rather than split Evasion/Energy Shield

GGG needs to fix this before launch of 0.4.0 as this is a fun way to play the game as the attack speed part of this is not the way this needs to be nerfed, there are other parts if there was some game breaking interaction, address that instead of nerfing the hit portion that enables more builds. they need to fix end point calculations and not build defining properties.

But you know Base Attack speed is inreased, which is pretty significant, considering any mod will affect it? Campaign gonna be faster. 0.4 Is nerfing only endgame HP, which is fine imo.
Don't panic. Pre-release forum topics are just clownfiesta mostly.
I know that, because I got baited into it in 0.3 release.
Just wait and see.

I know you're replying to OP and his point but I felt I'd share my 2 cents too aas someone who min/maxed a HP deadeye build last league.

Yes, HPM will be nerfed at high-end investment builds and it's campaign will still remain strong. Sure, that checks out, but why stunt player agency and force us into boxes? What's the point of an ARPG if everyone is playing the game exactly as "the vision" or how the devs intended? It just doesn't quite make sense to me.

Especially when lightning skills will remain the meta and Rhoa will be the only way to get 100% movement speed penalty reduction, while PF will be the 2nd best option after that. It's counter productive in my opinion.

"

gabimaru#4392 wrote:

I know you're replying to OP and his point but I felt I'd share my 2 cents too aas someone who min/maxed a HP deadeye build last league.

Yes, HPM will be nerfed at high-end investment builds and it's campaign will still remain strong. Sure, that checks out, but why stunt player agency and force us into boxes? What's the point of an ARPG if everyone is playing the game exactly as "the vision" or how the devs intended? It just doesn't quite make sense to me.

Especially when lightning skills will remain the meta and Rhoa will be the only way to get 100% movement speed penalty reduction, while PF will be the 2nd best option after that. It's counter productive in my opinion.

HP ceiling nerf is deserved.
So is Lightning stuff, movement speed and infinite players sustain.
No reason to use one as an argument not to nerf another, when it's all should get nerfed eventually.
It is not killing builds, it is lowering the output ceiling. I assume the goal is to make somewhat similar output ceiling for all - and we simply do not know what's the point of reference, so it is hard to have a discussion about that, as for us players, it is VERY subjective.

"

"What's the point of an ARPG if everyone is playing the game exactly as "the vision" or how the devs intended?"

Name ARPG other than POE franchise that allows to play something that devs did not intended.
Also, intended or not, a build should never break the game to the point of displaying negative damage tooltip in bilions.
In essence, we always play what devs intended. If we find something they didnt - they will either change it or allow it, making it intended in principle.

"

Evergrey#7535 wrote:

"

gabimaru#4392 wrote:

I know you're replying to OP and his point but I felt I'd share my 2 cents too aas someone who min/maxed a HP deadeye build last league.

Yes, HPM will be nerfed at high-end investment builds and it's campaign will still remain strong. Sure, that checks out, but why stunt player agency and force us into boxes? What's the point of an ARPG if everyone is playing the game exactly as "the vision" or how the devs intended? It just doesn't quite make sense to me.

Especially when lightning skills will remain the meta and Rhoa will be the only way to get 100% movement speed penalty reduction, while PF will be the 2nd best option after that. It's counter productive in my opinion.

HP ceiling nerf is deserved.
So is Lightning stuff, movement speed and infinite players sustain.
No reason to use one as an argument not to nerf another, when it's all should get nerfed eventually.
It is not killing builds, it is lowering the output ceiling. I assume the goal is to make somewhat similar output ceiling for all - and we simply do not know what's the point of reference, so it is hard to have a discussion about that, as for us players, it is VERY subjective.

"

"What's the point of an ARPG if everyone is playing the game exactly as "the vision" or how the devs intended?"

Name ARPG other than POE franchise that allows to play something that devs did not intended.
Also, intended or not, a build should never break the game to the point of displaying negative damage tooltip in bilions.
In essence, we always play what devs intended. If we find something they didnt - they will either change it or allow it, making it intended in principle.

Sure, you can argue HPM AS ceiling nerf is deserved. But it is absolutely a fair argument to ask why lightning skills then continue to be undeniably broken league after league. All should get nerfed eventually? Why? To what extent should it nerfed as well and why is it suddenly necessary instead of making the mobs harder like previously? I honestly do not understand why GGG caved in to people saying the game is too hard and every pinnacle got gutted, most people would say it's good for the game and that it promotes slow combat but it's simply not true, builds that do millions of DPS will always exist.

And no, I'm not expecting the game to devolve and I don't want it to, but there are always going to be people who optimize and tinker with the builds to an extreme extent where "the damage tooltip is in the billions", it's an ARPG for gods sake I think we all play it for the power fantasy and to have fun, I made the same argument in the other thread - if you want every single skill in the game to be just as "balanced" and viable as one another then every single skill is basically the same.


Also in regards to your point that "we always play what the devs intended" if that's true - can you explain to me why there have been multiple changes when they were not received well by the community?

Multiple examples of the above happening e.g 0.2 saw a lot of changes reverted, and there's been other instances of "the devs going back on their word".

So yes, it's always more nuanced than what the average player makes it out to be and I truly believe the devs love the game and want to see it succeed, but some changes just don't really make sense - on paper at least. I'll always be in the "wait and see how it plays" camp. If I have fun - I'll play, if not I won't. :)

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gabimaru#4392 wrote:

Sure, you can argue HPM AS ceiling nerf is deserved. But it is absolutely a fair argument to ask why lightning skills then continue to be undeniably broken league after league.

Asking why Lighting stuff wasn't nerfed is fine - you should ask that - it is just not an argument of any value in discussion of another mechanic. "waah, they nerfed my toys, but their toys are still too good, waah" - that's how it sounds.

"

All should get nerfed eventually? Why?

Not all, but clear outliers should get in line to make balancing even possible. If you ask why we need balance, I'm gonna call the police.

"

To what extent should it nerfed as well and why is it suddenly necessary instead of making the mobs harder like previously?

To the extent of game designers intention. We can speak about where it should be, but that's just individual feeling. Every single topic that touches this subject becomes an argument between people.
Why nerfing player instead of buffing monsters?
Because we are already in the scenario of no other player failure risk than one-shots. And everyone is crying about one-shots everywhere - that's why.

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I'm not expecting the game to devolve

Define devolution.
Game is evolving. When devs decide to go back with something, it means they see their mistakes, which is good. It also tells us they do have something in mind and are going towards it.

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I think we all play it for the power fantasy and to have fun

You are very far from truth, but it is a wholesome pov you got there.

"

if you want every single skill in the game to be just as "balanced" and viable as one another then every single skill is basically the same.

That's not correct. Gameplay can be extremely different between builds that achieve similar DPS. There can also be different ways of building similar stuff and still get nearby DPS results.

"

Also in regards to your point that "we always play what the devs intended" if that's true - can you explain to me why there have been multiple changes when they were not received well by the community?

That question makes no sense brother.
What does early access game system reversal have to do with devs intention? Something didnt work, they went back. A "good call" is how you call it. I wouldn't assume that everything they put in the game is intentional and calculated. It's the opposite. They throw stuff in and see how it goes - then they act on its balance. So far balancing actions were rather humble, but early development does not have balancing steps in it anyways.
Also, it is hard to tell what's been positive and what negative, because the community is split - poe1 enjoyers who want poe2 to be poe1 for some reason, instead of playing the game they like. And poe2 enjoyers, who like harder, slower gameplay. Unless the topic is as clear as unclear Deli fog was.