Is PoE2 even PoE?

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

Game development is a scary thing in these days. Reading some comments, I can honestly understand why developers are hesistant to release roadmaps. You can't go back on your word, ever, no matter if you realise later that an idea just doesn't work out or is too much work.

They pulled a reverse Overwatch 2 and seriously? That's the good ending

Everyone can "go back on their word" in development, because even my neighbor's dead cat knows that shit happens and plans change.

But when you have/choose to go back on your word, be clear about it, be transparent about it and don't leave your consumers/costumers "hanging", hoping for something that will never happen. And don't let them (economically) support an idea for almost two years before telling them that the idea will never happen.

I don't think people in this thread are unreasonable; most of them just want answers to a few VERY simple questions. A few examples:

- Do you have any permanent, long-term plans for PoE1 beyond the next league?
- Will PoE1 ever receive anything close to the graphical and mechanical improvements "promised" in what was once called "4.0"?
- Will PoE1 ever reach a "4.0" state, or is 3.xx the future of PoE1?

Do you actually think that those questions are unreasonable? Do you think "don't know, we'll see" is a fair answer to any of those? As I said before; I would take and accept a "no". It's more than fair that a developer (more or less) abandons one game to focus on another. Just... And in danger of repeating myself here; be transparent.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

Game development is a scary thing in these days. Reading some comments, I can honestly understand why developers are hesistant to release roadmaps. You can't go back on your word, ever, no matter if you realise later that an idea just doesn't work out or is too much work.

That's a pretty bleak view on it. It's okay to have a change of plans, but that doesn't mean you get a freebie on not implementing something that was promised while still doing the other thing, while ALSO still raking in the money we thought (for years) was going towards PoE 1 improvements. If they would at least update the graphics, add the new model rigging and give us the promised gem system rework, I'd be okay with that, but we can't have that because it'd be directly competing with their new favorite child.

I realize that none of the above is an easy ask, but for fuck's sake, it's been over 6 years.

Firstly, you don't get to decide what GGG spends money on. Your reason for supporting them then may have been the idea of "2 campaigns in 1 game", and you have voiced your grievance over that ever since they pivoted from that idea. However, while you describe that as "holding them accountable", there's a line where criticism turns into perpetual punishment.

1) Proportionality: this is subjective of course and while I don't fault them for reevaluating the initial goal, you are of course allowed to feel differently
2) Relevance: is there still a path of 2 campaigns in one game? Hardly. I don't recall them promising something they haven't followed up on since, and unless you can point to a specific promise not connected to PoE2, I don't see it being relevant anymore
3) Opportunity for growth: what further learning or restitution is there even? See relevance
4) Timeframe: as you say, it's been years. A reasonable person acknowledges that people can change, and while initially it was justified, it is now years later and you are still singing the same tune

This "mistake" is now used endlessly to justify further criticism at every step of the way, only feeding into the negativity further. To me it sounds like you are trapped in the past while the game moves forward. You gotta break the cycle, Baumi. Let it go lmao.

That tidbit aside, GGG is still pumping money into the development of PoE1 and besides new league content, we have new skill and support gems, uniques, more quality of life changes than we had during the Chris Wilson era, et al.

Call my observation bleak, but look at the modern gaming landscape. The reality is that in the era of live service games, the idea of a roadmap is a cool idea. Builds trust and transparency. Good stuff! But fluke a timeline, or don't meet a goal, and it becomes a source of frustration and ridicule.

Once a company publishes their goal (because we as a community DEMAND open communication and transparency, it's so important to us!), those goals are treated as promises. And if a company doesn't meet those goals, it becomes a betrayal, and people react sourly and with condemnation.

It's just not a smart strategy.

Transparency is a paradox. The more transparent a studio tries to be, the more ammunition their critics have when things don't go as planned.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

Game development is a scary thing in these days. Reading some comments, I can honestly understand why developers are hesistant to release roadmaps. You can't go back on your word, ever, no matter if you realise later that an idea just doesn't work out or is too much work.

That's a pretty bleak view on it. It's okay to have a change of plans, but that doesn't mean you get a freebie on not implementing something that was promised while still doing the other thing, while ALSO still raking in the money we thought (for years) was going towards PoE 1 improvements. If they would at least update the graphics, add the new model rigging and give us the promised gem system rework, I'd be okay with that, but we can't have that because it'd be directly competing with their new favorite child.

I realize that none of the above is an easy ask, but for fuck's sake, it's been over 6 years.

It’s not about ignoring promises. The idea of PoE2 acting as an overhaul for PoE1 looked good on paper, but once the systems were actually built it became obvious that putting them into PoE1 would turn the game into something completely different. That is not an update, that is a replacement.

The PoE2 gem system is the clearest example. Dropping it into PoE1 would create the largest power spike the game has ever seen. It would not just upset balance, it would blow it apart. Every skill, support, item, ascendancy, and boss encounter would need to be reworked from the ground up. At that point we are not improving PoE1 anymore, we are simply making the game worse.

Even without the PoE2 gem system, balance is already a challenge, and the devs are constantly playing catch-up. Adding one massive gem change that would implode the entire system just because it was promised years ago is obviously not the priority. It is almost funny to watch newer players get upset over this. They cannot imagine the game without it and assume it should happen instantly.

The pace at which MTX are ported into PoE2 is a perfect illustration of how difficult these updates actually are. This is not something done in a few days or weeks. If the team were entirely focused on overhauling PoE1’s graphics, rigs, and animations to match PoE2, league content would start falling behind immediately. Anyone who has been around longer than Affliction League can see how much work this actually requires.

Over the past decade, a lot has changed in PoE in positive ways. Graphics used to be noticeably worse. The old models and effects looked flat and dated, but over the years the game has gradually improved. Performance, effects, and animations have been upgraded, and while it is not PoE2-level graphics, the game looks decent enough that a total overhaul is not really necessary. Expecting it to happen quickly is unrealistic, especially given the short timeframes players tend to assume.

Changes over the years tend to go unnoticed by newer players. Because Affliction League is where some first started, it is treated as if the game has always been in that state, ignoring the steady evolution from the initial release up to that point.

Imagine the uproar if PoE2’s systems had been forced into PoE1. Not because PoE2 is bad, but because it plays differently enough that replacing PoE1 overnight would have caused chaos. Personally, I am happy both games exist. It gives players options. Those who do not like PoE2 can stick to PoE1, and vice versa. Those who enjoy both have a better bridge between the fresh excitement of a new league and the slower periods of an empty one.

PoE2 was never prioritized over PoE1. The developers simply refused to erase PoE1 and turn it into a completely different game, avoiding a total balance disaster for the sake of a feature that only seems simple to those who have not seen how much work it would actually require.

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

This "mistake" is now used endlessly to justify further criticism at every step of the way, only feeding into the negativity further. To me it sounds like you are trapped in the past while the game moves forward. You gotta break the cycle, Baumi. Let it go lmao.

I don't have a problem with PoE 2's existence per sé. I don't like it, I have said this many times, but I don't fault you for liking it. It's not the promises/set goals themselves that were violated that causes me such irk. It's how they went about it, even after the fact. Let's not forget that Settlers went on for an entire year and there was mostly radio silence. It's not specifically that we got 2 games instead that is the problem, it's just one part of it.

If they had been open with communication during development and not just suddenly broken silence after 2 years since the initial 4.0 announcement to tell us that we would be getting shafted the following year, the whole ordeal wouldn't be such a massive disappointment, if the aftermath were handled appropriately also. Instead, we got silence on what the plans for PoE 1 were and there is still silence. No clear direction, nothing about what we can expect for 2026. We were originally told that development of one wouldn't affect either or. Now, I dabbled in that industry, so I don't blame them that it obviously didn't work, but I also have to be honest enough to say it was easy to foresee this outcome.

I'm very passionate about the game and I've always looked forward to what we were shown at ExileCon 2019. I can't just let it go because it's "in the past". I spent a lot of money on this game, it's a hobby, and I want them to know how I feel about it. After the major disappointment of game release after game release on my wish list for 2024 and 2025, I, at the very least, would like to know where the game is headed in 2026.

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

Transparency is a paradox. The more transparent a studio tries to be, the more ammunition their critics have when things don't go as planned.

Transparency is one thing, transparency for keeping up appearances is another. I get your point, but that isn't entirely what happened here. Though they have improved on it ever since the major callouts to sneaky patch notes edits and nerfs etc.

The only point I was trying to make is that, DESPITE the line "2 campaigns, 1 game"......the logic wasn't there from the start. For anyone with a critical brain on their shoulders. Their intent with PoE 2 from the start in 2019 was a LOT of changes.

Logically, what would that require if they held true to "1 game"? One game or the other or BOTH would need to drastically change to "fit". But no matter what, there would be MASSIVE change. You cannot drop a completely different game into another, and just expect everything to suddenly mesh together in a shared endgame. Imagine playing Diablo 2 characters in and alongside Diablo 3 characters in Greater Rifts....

This wasn't a secret....so holding this "2 campaigns, 1 game" line against them for 6 freaking years is ridiculous. We already received the BEST POSSIBLE answer to that question in the splitting of the games. Same PoE 1 that folks have grown to love and the NEW PoE 2 that folks should have expected.

The issues that remain in both are an entirely SEPARATE argument to be made, for each game uniquely. That would no longer be any connection to the "Is PoE 2 even PoE (1)" argument of this thread.



As for those "simple questions" that were brought up.....those have been answered multiple times by the developers since 2023 starting with the announcement of the separated games. Whether you believe them or not is on you, but your disagreement doesn't signal that those questions WEREN'T already answered. They have claimed they will continue developing both games simultaneously, releasing new content for both. Presumably 4.0 will come when they do a MAJOR expansion, like what sparked 3.0 in the first place. And if it doesn't then we just continue on the same path with the last 8 years of PoE history.

This idea that the developers are "required" to tell you that, or anything, is laughable. Especially considering....they already did. Developers don't have to tell us anything. Ever. And yet, they are exceedingly transparent by comparison for a game company.

What's the point in the developers telling us anything if the loud people with issues don't even listen to the answers? How many interviews have the developers done? How many content reveals? How many "plans for the future" posts? Because there have been a TON of all of these.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

This wasn't a secret....so holding this "2 campaigns, 1 game" line against them for 6 freaking years is ridiculous. We already received the BEST POSSIBLE answer to that question in the splitting of the games. Same PoE 1 that folks have grown to love and the NEW PoE 2 that folks should have expected.

You are interpreting that argument point in the wrong direction. There's a difference between "2 games that play differently" and "2 separate games". The whole point of that argument is that we want the graphics and system changes that we were promised but PoE 2 got instead, while having two fundamentally different games with different core gameplay. You can have your slow, methodical and combo-heavy PoE 2, but I want my updated PoE 1 in all its shiny, crazy glory. That is not an idea too difficult to grasp, I think.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

Because you want to "gacha" me

You know, when I give you a link of CW saying the opposite, it's not gatcha, it's just confronting. If you say something incorrect, it's not gatcha to say it's incorrect :)

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

It is an entirely separate event at that particular exilecon where they go DEEPER in depth than the level 11 area being shown.

Maybe, prove it, link ? Considering at that 2019 event they only had that act 1 sketch, I wonder what you will show us to see. And I'm saying to see, not what you say without anything backing it up.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

They SAY all that!!! They absolutely ABSOLUTELY want it to be intrinsically slower.

Link plz ?

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And you conveniently AGAIN ignored everything being SAID while watching that level 11 area gameplay.

I'm not ignoring, quite the opposite, I say what you say makes no sense because what you show is a level 11 gameplay, talking about things like aura power.

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They literally state for all to hear it: they want PoE 2 to be SLOW

Meanwhile, CW :
I'm not saying we're trying to achieve a slower Pace
but it's not going to be slow

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The developers knew EXACTLY what they wanted from the game

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You are going to lose this argument because we have videos

Yes, they wanted to scale everything down to bring room for expansions, because PoE1 went out of control because of 10 years incrementals.

I am not arguing with you, I have nothing to lose over. I am showing you. I'm not pretending they said A or B the way you do, I'm showing you. I answer you with links and transcrips :

ExileCon 2023, Jonathan :
Will PoE2 be much slower than PoE1 ?
"It’s not the goal to make it slower"
"it's likely that the 95th percentile of speed will be a bit slower"

Mark :
what do we actually want to bring down
"that is what we had to do because of where the numbers have gotten to."
"bringing both scales down doesn't mean everything's much slower"
"it certainly allows us to then have more room to add more pinnacle bosses with more life over another ten years of content."

Reminder of what I wrote before, just to be sure how closely it matches :

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A live game needs increments, so you always reach a point where the speed gets out of control. They don't want PoE2 to be slow intrinsically.
They NEED it to start slow, to give room for future content. That's it. And a lot of people talking so much about how slow PoE2 is better are in for a bad surprise overtime for that reason. It's only a matter of when, not if.

Yup.

Didn't expect Baumi to outright admit he's indeed not "holding them to account" but instead holding a grudge. One comes from a point of genuinely wanting things to improve (and thus stopping when appropriate), the other is, well... not. And that's exactly why I proposed to let it go already, because those harboring those feelings further only hurts yourself.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

but I want my updated PoE 1 in all its shiny, crazy glory.

Well, that is exactly what GGG delivered. Two separate games, PoE1 preserved in its original glory and PoE2 offering a fresh, modern experience. Even if some players confuse the first league they played, Affliction League, as the original glory of PoE1, it was an unusually over-the-top league and far from a normal representation of the game. New players who started with it might see it as the golden standard, but not a single league was as broken or busted as this one. The current state of PoE1 is still very much solid and true to the good old PoE1, never drifting toward being similar to PoE2.

Wanting an "updated" PoE1 in all its shiny, crazy glory, is unrealistic. It would be nice, sure, but it is very low on the priority list.
The devs will not dive into a full graphical overhaul right away because it would take a huge workforce for very little gain. Players who enjoy the game as it is do so because it does not need a graphical overhaul. There are other obvious gaps and issues that need to be filled and addressed, and the devs have already shown they work slowly but steadily toward that, even with the much slower pace of just two months.

Maybe newer players do not really understand that, I do not know. They just see something shiny elsewhere, assume it must be better, and expect it right away out of FOMO, even though it is quite unrealistic to ask for.

After all, if shiny graphics are what we are after, PoE2 is there, ready to be played at any given time. Or if the slightly different gameplay loop feels too different or hard, there is also Diablo 4, which offers quite the scenery for what it is, and the gameplay loop is more forgiving and easier on fresh players who are still learning the basics and trying to understand how the game works.