Experience Loss Is Harsh Bro...

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CovidPatientZero#4772 wrote:

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karsey#2995 wrote:

Spoiler

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Panzerstrike#1881 wrote:

I swear all I see is requests to make the game easier, simpler and more bland.

Penalty too high, movement too slow, items too rare, boss too hard, maps too big, maps too complicated, on and on and on...
All the while playing content that is the hardest available in the game.

If we removed/reduced these things the 'game' would cease to exist.

You'll notice these people never make an effort to overcome anything. It's a straight plea to the devs to make rewards easier to obtain.

I don't think developers should ever listen to this kind of player.

Why? They are not here to play a game, do a puzzle, complete a challenge, etc.. They are here to get a reward for clicking.

If they were here to play a game, they'd be asking how to solve the challenges, not pleading for them to be removed.

Why would you ever design a game for the people who don't like to play it?

Especially since these players have already demonstrated that they think the rewards are still worth it? And ESPECIALLY since they all copy the builds and rely on the solutions prepared for them by the people who do like to play it?

If they got their way, no one would like it - and the rewards wouldn't feel rewarding. It'd undermine the entire game.

What you've done here is a classic strawman argument. No one ever suggested they don't want a challenge, the op even said losing xp for the current map is fine. What people don't want, and has been state numerous times, is to lose hours of XP already earned with no option to recover it.

Instead of actually discussing the reasons given, you decide to think of the worst reasons possible for wanting to change the XP loss and ascribe those to people. It's like calling someone sexist if they didn't vote for Kamala, there is no honest discussion but instead you just want to delegitimize other opinions in the most dishonest way possible.

You completely missed the entire point.
Challenge is one thing, “easy” is another. Yet, these two terms are married in every single XP loss thread. The gatekeepers can’t seem to come up with anything else.
lol and you said I was straw-manning.
In the endgame, if you combined all of the XP loss due to deaths, how much would you get back?
1, 2, maybe…..MAYBE 3 levels? Probably 2 at most.
So that throws any claim of "easy", "free", and "unchallenging" completely out of the window.
Even if there were no XP loss in the game, how many more do you think would hit 100?
Answer honestly.
I know I wouldn't.
You STILL have to kill the mobs and if your guy runs out of gas, thats it.

Players will grow tired of tedium and spinning their wheels long, LONG before the feeling of momentum.
I do like the idea of an end of a build. That’s as fast or far as that car can go. That’s ok.
This feeling, as ironic as it is, is unbelievably satisfying. This is exponentially amplified if you've come up with your own build without a guide, or video and absolutely not a streamer.
This game's fun for me is how I can play with my own ideas. Some times it works, most of the time it doesn't.
I like it so much that I like it even when it doesn't work.

But, you don’t have to take anything from a player to achieve this.

I never really felt exp loss before about lvl 90. Because you cleared maps and grew your power bit by bit. Yeah, you died, but you actually felt like you learned from mistakes. You noticed why you died, got better and moved on.
But after lvl 90 it's like hitting a brick wall. I am now lvl 93 and I need to clear 20-23 maps without dying to get to lvl 94. And messy visual nature of the game in big fights brings almost a 100% possibility of dying at some point during those 20 maps and setting your progress back by about 2-3 maps so you start seeing the hamster wheel you're spinning in.

Today I just died for no apparent reason after a fight. I killed all ads, moved several meters to the side to pick up the loot from the boss and was instantly killed (2K hp + 3K sorc shield btw). But by what remains a mystery. Whish the game would have a list of sources of damage you took before dying, like in League of legends. So you could see what did most damage and could adjust the build accordingly.

Also as a side rant rituals at high levels are 100% bait. You have 0 agency in that tiny arena and 100% depend on what AOE elemets the trial rolls, and where and what ads spawn. It's basically russian roulette.

And don't get me started on the Cenotes map boss.

idk i cleared 94 in 1.5 days and 95 in 2 days after work. I thought it'd be slower given the comments I'd been reading prior.
96 has noticeably slowed, maybe 1-2% a map now, but i'm also running gold tablets over xp ones atm, which is partly to blame. Expect 97+ will be slow, but sub 95 is pretty comparable to PoE if not easier because of the omen.
really lazy map rolling, playing anything but triple damage (try to remove with vertebrae/vaal)

About the omen "not working": there is only 1 combat omen that can trigger at the same time, so if you're running low life hp restore and xp prevent, and you get taken into low life on the killing hit, it'll 50/50 which triggers. Also, xp prevent only works on the first death per map. I was expecting the omen to be 1-2d ea, but they've consistently been 20-40 ex, which is just like so cheap. All the same, I like that you have the choice to spend <some amount> to proactively buy back xp vs decide you want to all-in on farming, xp be damned.

Losing your xp for the map (or preventing you from getting further xp in that map) isn't an awful idea, but it's still promoting "only upward" progress, moving the deleveling barrier from every level to every map which I don't like. If 95+, or wherever you draw the line, is pure optimization, then levels as they are now are at least an indicator of build consistency over solely tenacity and time.

I think there is some fair criticism, but there's also unsubstantiated ego at play, like "my build cannot possibly have any faults, it's the game that's wrong" when the game's strength comes from having so much build flexibility and letting ppl constantly evolve their approach. The comments about only X build can do Y are dumb and in bad faith.

The only boss i truly dislike is the stupid hurricane bird (is that Cenotes?) that shoots out lightning, since he'll phase around 50% and hump his DoT tornado for 1min+ if you don't burst him immediately, but maybe there's a way to knock him out of it, idk. Blood loss is also annoyingly consumed without damage granted while he's in it.

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hqDM#6633 wrote:

The only boss i truly dislike is the stupid hurricane bird (is that Cenotes?) that shoots out lightning, since he'll phase around 50% and hump his DoT tornado for 1min+ if you don't burst him immediately, but maybe there's a way to knock him out of it, idk. Blood loss is also annoyingly consumed without damage granted while he's in it.

Cenotes is what my extra Tier 1 waystones are for. I'm sure better players can kill the sky seer at whatever level, but I can't be bothered.

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DistributedAutomaton#5739 wrote:

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hqDM#6633 wrote:

The only boss i truly dislike is the stupid hurricane bird (is that Cenotes?) that shoots out lightning, since he'll phase around 50% and hump his DoT tornado for 1min+ if you don't burst him immediately, but maybe there's a way to knock him out of it, idk. Blood loss is also annoyingly consumed without damage granted while he's in it.

Cenotes is what my extra Tier 1 waystones are for. I'm sure better players can kill the sky seer at whatever level, but I can't be bothered.

You've given a great example. I died to this guy last week or the week before.
He disappeared after the tornado. He wasn't off screen or anything like that, just wasn't rendered back in.

I had an idea of what he was doing but couldn't read it. He was directly in front of me and that's kind of all i knew.
XP gone. Whoopsie-poopsie.

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Skyvortex#7923 wrote:

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DistributedAutomaton#5739 wrote:

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hqDM#6633 wrote:

The only boss i truly dislike is the stupid hurricane bird (is that Cenotes?) that shoots out lightning, since he'll phase around 50% and hump his DoT tornado for 1min+ if you don't burst him immediately, but maybe there's a way to knock him out of it, idk. Blood loss is also annoyingly consumed without damage granted while he's in it.

Cenotes is what my extra Tier 1 waystones are for. I'm sure better players can kill the sky seer at whatever level, but I can't be bothered.

You've given a great example. I died to this guy last week or the week before.
He disappeared after the tornado. He wasn't off screen or anything like that, just wasn't rendered back in.

I had an idea of what he was doing but couldn't read it. He was directly in front of me and that's kind of all i knew.
XP gone. Whoopsie-poopsie.

The solution for that isn't to make the game easier. XP LOSS ON DEATH IS A GOOD THING. The solution is to change your playstyle to be able to beat the boss. That boss is a DPS and crowd control check. If I were playing Trade, I'd be able to scale DPS faster. Since I'm in SSF and pretend hardcore, I need to scale down that boss so I can beat it.

I'll probably eventually use this current character in Standard to farm Trials of Chaos, because I'm immune to so many of those debuffs (no ES, no armor, massive elemental damage reduction), so I'll need to beat the sky seer on higher levels. But that's going to require more grinding.

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DistributedAutomaton#5739 wrote:

The solution for that isn't to make the game easier. XP LOSS ON DEATH IS A GOOD THING. The solution is to change your playstyle to be able to beat the boss. That boss is a DPS and crowd control check. If I were playing Trade, I'd be able to scale DPS faster. Since I'm in SSF and pretend hardcore, I need to scale down that boss so I can beat it.

I'll probably eventually use this current character in Standard to farm Trials of Chaos, because I'm immune to so many of those debuffs (no ES, no armor, massive elemental damage reduction), so I'll need to beat the sky seer on higher levels. But that's going to require more grinding.

1. I never asked for it to be easier. I specifically stated this in my previous post.
Tedium=/=hard.
2. The solution to this is to fix the jank and to empower the player to understand why and how. Like, a combat log.

If you're being facetious, my apologies.

Omen of Amelioration

/thread


"oh but if I die twice Omen is moot"


fix your build

/thread

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DarKWolF90#6544 wrote:

Omen of Amelioration

/thread


"oh but if I die twice Omen is moot"


fix your build

/thread

MOST deaths in this game have jack to do with build and more to the game being buggy or the horrible state of bosses.

I don't die clearing Maps Adds at all, until I enter a boss room where I then get attacked by a boss that's either bugged, sometimes invisible, or off screen "telegraphing" an attack you can't see.

The majority people clearing bosses are people who play it like POE1 and build over-powered DPS to skip boss mechanics. Tell me where is the difficulty in that? Copying another build & then going on easy mode?

Make the game difficult, make builds actually matter in boss fights. Make the game stable, etc.

But let the POE1 anti-casual/anti-balance perspective become a relic already, not everything needs to be as mindlessly boring as Dark Souls. Lets kill the POE community is toxic perspective by coming up with solutions to make a better game.

In my opinion, XP loss is one thing but the reason why you're dying is because you're not strong enough.

Why is the character not strong enough?
Build is one thing but not the main factor.

The main factor is the reward system in the game is too harsh. When you get to level 90, it's rarely you can actually find any upgrade directly by farming the drops. You will need hundreds of materials to craft items to hopefully get an upgraded version of the item that you need.