Need an advice from Cyclone professionals

^thats not a slayer thing.....thats a playstyle thing that Champion won't be fixing. In fact, Champion will likely make that WORSE with taunt. Having the permanent fortify will help, but it won't solve off-screen one shots due to incorrect playstyle.

Slayer requires speed to keep the overleech up at all times, and nearly ALL melee requires you to constantly be attacking.

Slayer definitely isn't bait in HC but it is a playstyle specific thing and if it isn't to your taste its usually better to play another ascendancy.

Cowmoo is right that its kinda about speed, you should clear maps by being in combat the entire time and just not stopping until the maps cleared - if you play like this you'll have full fort all the time anyway.

It isn't to my taste though I do better as champ than slayer always have but it definitely isn't bait.

Yeah...

While I agree that it's more a "playstyle thing", don't sleep on the new Champion's defenses. While a constant Fortify buff is nice, the MORE multipliers you get for armor and evasion are more than worth mentioning.

Scaling Fortify is limited to VERY few unique items, 3 that I can think of; The Celstial Brace, Replica Badge of The Brotherhood and Lethal Pride (is there a Focus craft too?). But when scaling one mechanic (Fortify) lets you scale more defense and offense at the same time through the ascendancy and Perseverance, it gets strong.

But then again, the 10% damage reduction you get from Slayer shouldn't be slept upon either, as unlike Fortify, it helps you versus DoT.

Yes, it's a playstyle thing, but Champion IS looking rather strong this league.

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Phrazz#3529 wrote:

Yeah...

While I agree that it's more a "playstyle thing", don't sleep on the new Champion's defenses. While a constant Fortify buff is nice, the MORE multipliers you get for armor and evasion are more than worth mentioning.

Scaling Fortify is limited to VERY few unique items, 3 that I can think of; The Celstial Brace, Replica Badge of The Brotherhood and Lethal Pride (is there a Focus craft too?). But when scaling one mechanic (Fortify) lets you scale more defense and offense at the same time through the ascendancy and Perseverance, it gets strong.

yes but thats why I said "start" with Slayer. Champion will be and can be GREAT, but it requires much more investment. Until you actually get a decent amount of maximum fortify beyond 20, those "more" multis are completely useless.

Champion is further left vulnerable in the earlier stages of HC because of MUCH smaller AoE, lack of recovery, and lack of damage. 1hko defenses should be pretty much exactly the same, if not stronger on a Slayer, before getting the max fortify gear.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

^thats not a slayer thing.....thats a playstyle thing that Champion won't be fixing. In fact, Champion will likely make that WORSE with taunt. Having the permanent fortify will help, but it won't solve off-screen one shots due to incorrect playstyle.

Slayer requires speed to keep the overleech up at all times, and nearly ALL melee requires you to constantly be attacking.

That.. is a slayer thing. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. Playstyle? If you stand in a ritual window or some kind of bs shop (I guess while you're checking out a merc this league?) some white mob charges you and claps you. No leech, no fortify, no decent armour, not a single working ascendancy node to prevent that. Champion has perma fortify and regen on top of higher defences in general. Yeah, damage will probably be bad, but it's not about damage is it?

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

Champion is further left vulnerable in the earlier stages of HC because of MUCH smaller AoE, lack of recovery, and lack of damage. 1hko defenses should be pretty much exactly the same, if not stronger on a Slayer, before getting the max fortify gear.

I tend to agree. And while Champion may surpass Slayer when we're closing in on the endgame, Slayer might surpass Champion again when we start factoring in Forbidden jewels, but I haven't really min/maxed that thought.

Also a side note; While Champion does indeed have less AoE than Slayer, they did buff the Cyclone AoE with a sizeable amount.

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Ourore#0291 wrote:

That.. is a slayer thing. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. Playstyle? If you stand in a ritual window or some kind of bs shop (I guess while you're checking out a merc this league?) some white mob charges you and claps you. No leech, no fortify, no decent armour, not a single working ascendancy node to prevent that. Champion has perma fortify and regen on top of higher defences in general. Yeah, damage will probably be bad, but it's not about damage is it?

Look, I'm trying to be straight with you based on years and years of experience playing Melee on both Champions and Slayers (and Gladiators pre-retaliation nonsense).

If you are dying to 1hkos as a Slayer, its NOT because you are a Slayer (over Champion). It's because of your play style not matching the build. Slayer has absolutely no (special) trouble staying alive when compared to other builds, and specifically Champion.

The additional defenses that Champion receives include:
1) Permanent Fortify, which is achievable with proper playstyle on Slayer
2) Additional Armor if you've impaled, which is exactly the same problem you happen to have with Slayer in that its situational and requires timing.
3) 10% reduced damage from taunted enemies, which requires 4 ascendancy points and situational. Slayer ALSO gets 10% reduced damage from enemies in very much the same way
4) Auto-adrenaline: a great "oh *$*%" recovery for HC, but only works if you haven't been 1hko'd....meaning it doesn't help with that. Slayer overleech is more reliable and generally longer-lasting recovery.

I'm not saying Champion is BAD. I'm saying it requires more investment to go above and beyond the Slayer. I'm not sure how many "melee" champions you've created in HC recently, but the permanent Fortify alone, which is the only non-situational defensive layer you get, is not suddenly going to solve your 1hko's.

New league Champion has a MUCH higher ceiling of defense, with the "more" multis and the "you are at MAXIMUM fortify" bit, but it does NOT have a higher base defense.

If HC is the goal i'd pick Champ over Slayer. Even without any gear, 26% less damage taken, unconditionally, all the time, is huge. Adrenalin can also be triggered manually and be kept up basically all the time. Then there are the bonuses to armor and evasion. The fortify cluster also provides 10% reduced dot damage. It's a powerful package that's essentially permanent and very reliable.

Slayers defenses on the other hand are all conditional. Reduced damage only while leeching and if you are after charges those are also conditional and can be stolen in the worst possible moment unless you have Ralakesh. There are also plenty of ways to get overleech on other classes, you don't need to be a Slayer for that.

Slayer is a good choice for SC where it doesn't hurt much when you get caught unaware sometimes but for HC i'd rate the Champs reliability much higher.

There is a reason why Champ was the number one pick for HC classes for years before they nerfed it into the ground. And it's going to be even better next league.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

The additional defenses that Champion receives include:
1) Permanent Fortify, which is achievable with proper playstyle on Slayer
2) Additional Armor if you've impaled, which is exactly the same problem you happen to have with Slayer in that its situational and requires timing.
3) 10% reduced damage from taunted enemies, which requires 4 ascendancy points and situational. Slayer ALSO gets 10% reduced damage from enemies in very much the same way
4) Auto-adrenaline: a great "oh *$*%" recovery for HC, but only works if you haven't been 1hko'd....meaning it doesn't help with that. Slayer overleech is more reliable and generally longer-lasting recovery.

Aren't you forgetting 3% MORE armor and evasion for every Fortification above 20 here? I feel it needs to be mentioned, as it does open up some possibilities.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

Look, I'm trying to be straight with you based on years and years of experience playing Melee on both Champions and Slayers (and Gladiators pre-retaliation nonsense).

I've only had Slayers, but I've had dozens of them. Baharoth said it all - Slayer is conditional. My last Slayer rip was in Wildwood league while I was buying something from a vendor there and got barrel-rolled by a white tree. Another good one was getting smoked by Crusader mobs right as I've entered a map. These things rarely happen, but once is often enough on hc. Playstyle, again, doesn't matter there, it's about consistency.

On the side note, I'm once again starting to get second thoughts on my choice of Cyclone lol. Even after the buff, it still feels kinda underpowered. I want to finally make it work though without some side sht like Whispering Ice or Ngamahu or HoA.