Why Does PoE2 Keep XP Loss on Death?

This isn't an issue with skill or game mechanics. It's a game balance issue.

The key to this problem is trying to play off meta builds.


This leads us to a deeper problem... The existence of meta in the 1st place.


Anyone old enough to remember games before the internet knows that "meta" is a relatively new concept in gaming and developers are having a difficult time dealing with it.

We used to play games without having the option to find out what the professionals are doing so we can just copy that. We had to figure it out for ourselves. As a result, game designers didn't have to try and balance games around "net decking" pro builds (or CCG decks).

Now that everyone simply googles a streamer and copies a guide, we have a situation where a dozen pro gamers dictate the meta and the power level the devs have to balance around.

This brings us back to your "off meta" problem. The game has been balanced around professional "meta" builds, so your "off meta" build is never going to be good enough to play the game unless you have professional level knowledge. In that case, your going to end up finding the same "meta" mechanics the pros are using and will no longer be an "off meta" build.



To solve your problem in particular, play a meta build, get to level 100, get rich; then go back and experiment with making your own builds and see if you can successfully make one.

The thing is, that everyone is right in this post. All of these opinions are valid, and that is the difficulty of game design.

Finding the balance.

Fun shines when its hard, but not too hard. Thats what she said.

DISCLAIMER
This is also a VASTLY different issue for trade and ssf. I'm not sure that we're considering that in our discussions.

This shouldn't even be an issue for trade, and trade shouldn't actually exist in this type of game. I draw the line there.


ROOT ISSUE
I've been trying to get word out, that I think the root issue here, is exp loss takes away what you've already earned. It doesn't only punish your performance now, it punishes your good performance earlier.

If we killed a monster, picked up the gear, died to the next monster, and lost the previous monsters gear... everyone would be mildly upset. Yet its ok with exp? I think the majority would agree with that, so we're just missing the balance point.

Death punishment of some nature is good for the game. Its fun, if its not too punishing. It makes levels mean something, which is a good thing. This games design, wants levels to actually mean something- which is confusing, because most games level cap is a given; but its fine once we understand that, and it makes sense in this type of game. It just has to not ruin the experience for the playerbase, and actually feel rewarding when and while you level.

It also can't be a grind, because the majority of the population will bow out. Which means the system needs to reward consistency in some manner, reward consistent good play, with faster leveling. Well, it should.

Although this requires crazy good game balance- which requires immediately nerfing broken things, buffing broken things, high attention and maintenance at an extremely high level of competency. Balance between classes, ESPECIALLY NEW CLASSES. Which means you need talent and money. Which makes me think this game should do the wow model of x bucks a month. I never minded paying 15 a month for wow- this game actually deserves to be paid for, even at this pre-release its better than most games- by a lot. I'd easily pay, if it meant the game was kick ass. Went into a commercial there.


I think the solution is somewhere in the realm of exp gates for completed zones. Once you complete a map/area, your exp is safe. Perhaps the exp bar is green for exp you'll receive once you complete the area; but you don't own it until you hit a save/checkpoint or something. Something along those lines. Basically nothing is ever taken away, you just didn't capture it. Exactly like if you don't pickup gear before another monster skooshes you. This is consistent with the rest of the game design, it makes sense, its intuitive.

People are frustrated because no one likes to beat a map, die in the next one, and lose all their exp and more from the last map. No one likes to waste their fucking time and effort. Especially successful time and effort, later nullified. If the tax guy came to everyones house, and you had the money- then had to hand over the money, everyone would be pissed and there would be a fight. Theres not a fight, because they take the money before you see it, you're losing what you didn't know you had... or choose to ignore because it infuriates you.

If you get your paycheck and can barely feed your kid- thats quite different than if you had the money to feed your kid, and someone came and took it before you fed your kid.

I think we're dealing with this concept in some manner.

solutions for the op:

...dont die
...gear up
...improve your skill


all this is not intended to troll or provoke

its what i do since 2013.

I agree with the idea that dying frequently should halt progression.

But I think removing progress is a very demoralizing way to go about it.

Instead, it should be possible to make lategame XP dependent on a XP boost that is only given if you finish the map without dying.

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Pyro_Cro#3556 wrote:

Please Remove XP lose on death
In its place remove XP gained on a map ---> on map loss/fail.

No progress if you are not completing maps is fair.
Lossing XP on death is not.(given you could have multiple deaths now on 1 map)

When you replay a map you are already getting less XP since map effects are lost.(and you can die)

If you look up and copy the best meta you will not die.(This is so not fun)

I can deal with hitting a wall and maybe I do need to look up the meta but a "Customer Time Pilfering" mechanic. Yuck! that is what is feels like.

Yes, this is a great solution if you have no clue how the game works. You do realize that it is possible to gain MULTIPLE levels in a single map... right?

Currently the system, a percentage based loss, is most punishing at the highest levels where gaining a level DOES NOT MATTER. The extra skill point at the highest levels makes no build defining difference.

Your solution punishes people at the LOWEST level of maps more, where those skill points do have a larger impact.

The solution to the problem is simple, stop thinking about diablo and other games where 100 is the "start" of the endgame. Stop treating level 100 as something you must obtain, in a game where by design level 100 is not intended for every character to obtain.

To stretch the game out

"

Dominus_Straterae#2878 wrote:

This isn't an issue with skill or game mechanics. It's a game balance issue.

The key to this problem is trying to play off meta builds.


This leads us to a deeper problem... The existence of meta in the 1st place.

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To solve your problem in particular, play a meta build, get to level 100, get rich; then go back and experiment with making your own builds and see if you can successfully make one.

I think most people have this understanding also.

From my perspective I don't care too much about reaching lvl 100.
when I play the game the character I've built is my take/perspective on the combat sandbox.
It's cool to see youtubers/pros play the meta but I should not have to be a "Copy Andy" to make the game playable. (not saying u cannot have your own spin on a build and or even just straight up copy which is fine and useful)

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Valsacar#0268 wrote:

Yes, this is a great solution if you have no clue how the game works. You do realize that it is possible to gain MULTIPLE levels in a single map... right?

I don't see a problem with locking in levels as you level up.
but I'm also fine with losing all of it.(which would complicate point assignment, I'm not saying this has to be the solution)
It's simple you didn't complete the map you don't get the XP.(this is simple and require little explanation)
This should make it clear that progress is tied with clearing the maps.
This should also isolate the influence of dying on balancing progress.

With negative XP loss on death I can get punished for completing the previous map by dying multiple times.
Oh did the game lag once too bad there goes last maps progress.

Like I said in this game it feels ok when you hit a wall.
"oh maybe I need to tweak this or remove all of these skill and change the tree"

But the negative XP loss on death can wipe out my previous map progress from last weekend play session Yuck, Like I said before it feels bad.

Maybe I need to have a better build
Maybe I need better reaction times

I would argue the difficulty of the mobs/bosses can communicate this without regressing my progress.

Just to be clear I don't think anyone is asking for the game to be easier I'm ok with skipping and or attempting and failing GOD tier content.
what I don't want is the frustration of starting this weekend's play session by losing last weekend progress.

is this a fair ask?

I am so close to dumping this game due to XP loss on death. Have 3 character on LVL 90 and I'm hard stuck.

1-2 death every few maps is enough to kill your whole enjoyment.

The game doesn't respect my time, I feel no sense of progress.

There is just too many things that can BS kill you, on death explosions, after death effects, ground effects, off screen dmg, teleporting enemies, balls chasing you, and all that is sucha a visual clutter it's just tiresome to keep track off.

Love the game but this is JUST NO FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

XP loss on death is an anti-fun mechanic and all the sweaty tryhard capital G gamers who support this are nuts.

You can still punish death in ways that don't make the later endgame a dismal grind that takes eons to progress in. It's a cheap mechanic designed to have you play more and more but it honestly sucks a lot of the fun out of the game.

Games are supposed to be fun, when did people forget this?

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eschandin#3638 wrote:

ok, for u 2 boys we will switch to NO EXP LOSS. but u loose all equipment on death. :)


For real,that is a arpg and not diablo.

No Cap, but Diablo 2 Equipment Loss was a far better design than XP Loss. You could simply recover the equipment. So basically, you save an alt equipment for these cases and recover your equipment. That alone makes far more forgivable than losing potentially a week of XP grinding.