Should GGG balance around them?

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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Horky#6225 wrote:

I'm a huge lover of corrupting cry and I'm gonna take it as far as I can go, but I'm definitely hoping it will get some love.

It needs a 4-5x increase in base damage or better scaling options, that'd put it in a good spot where it feels good to use but doesn't come close to trivialising any boss, with around 50k-100k expected DPS. As it stands, all it currently needs is some damage. Everything else surrounding it imo is in a good spot already.

I would absolutely love that. It would be amazing to be able to use it as our primary ability instead of "just a clearing ability" just to have to swap to a second weapon set to put down totems or perfect strike to help with single target. Going all in on scaling shout to play shout build, then having to have + melee on gear for a swap to help with single target feelsbadman.

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Horky#6225 wrote:

Going all in on scaling shout to play shout build, then having to have + melee on gear for a swap to help with single target feelsbadman.

Precisely the point of the other thread. Exploring build concepts just doesn't feel the same when you are expected to have a weapon swap nuke setup. My understanding was that it's supposed to add more build flexibility. This is the whole stat stick snapshot meta all over again that we had years ago in PoE 1. And then you have people like the OP who are so ignorant in their biased circlejerk agenda playing meta builds that they fail to see the bigger picture. PoE 2 was said to change the pace and lower the overall build requirements. That was a blatant lie.

Balance in PoE always was very bad, and in PoE 2 it got even worse.
First rule of game design is: player pays only for its own mistakes. And PoE signature always were BS oneshots and other very bad mechanics (bleeding for example).
Second, there is no skill in point and click combat mechanic. This means that increasing the difficulty only increases gear checks, that's it. You can beat difficult Dark Souls bosses with bad weapon improving your skill, and there are very few of them to start with. In DS3 and Bloodborne all bosses are easy except DLCs.
But in point and click all difficulty goes to: do you have expensive gear or not? Also it limits build variety to almost zero. Want to play the game? Copy meta build, otherwise you will fail.
I remember vanila Diablo 2, it was a good game. There were many worthwhile builds, drop was good, you could explore the game in many ways. Then came LoD where every mob at hell was resistant or immune, then came nerfs of everything, then they nerfed drop, and you ended up with hammerdine and sorc as the only way to play the game without uber loot.

remove rarity from itemns

Difficulty is needed & PoE 2 isn't that hard .

But yeah some aspects are extremely unbalanced and confusing at the moment , and bringing back the bloat from PoE 1 was a bad idea .

Currently, there exists a culture of pretending in ARPG's and videogames in general; that using off-meta builds is a viable playstyle, and I'm tired of it.

In multiple games across the industry as a whole, using meta builds is objectively the way to go and you will arguably have a more enjoyable experience.

The good thing about Path of Exile, is that there are a large number of meta builds, which gives the illusion of choice. It is also most likely the case that statistically, some people have a meta build or some version of it through their own accord.

Personally, I find it fun to build towards a successful meta build as it gives me an objective outside of the game itself. I don't need to spend hours in spreadsheets and simulations to figure out what works because other people have already gone down those mathematical rabbit holes.

I think GGG should embrace meta gameplay even more, by even suggesting in-game the types of builds the player could work towards in the skill tree and with their items.

In any game that punishes you, players will always gravitate towards not getting punished and anyone who thinks otherwise is being dishonest.

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Carinyc#0837 wrote:

Currently, there exists a culture of pretending in ARPG's and videogames in general; that using off-meta builds is a viable playstyle, and I'm tired of it.

In Borderlands games you can use any build you want. They are very easy on first playthrough, could be a bit challenging on second (Vault Hunter Mode), but still perfectly playable with literally anything.
But yet again, what is the point in difficulty if there is no skill involved? PoE is not Ninja Gaiden or Halo on legendary, there is nothing to master except gear. No seven buttons combos to learn, no perfect aiming. It is point and click ARPG.
Yes, PoE is too easy but only because the endgame is locked. Instead of just go to level 85 area like in Diablo 2, you constantly grinding low level activities with monster's level 60 something.

i could say the same thing to you .

should GGG balance everything around the top 1% of players , that one shot everything ? or around players that take 1 minute? 2, 20000?

you cant look at it that way ,

if you buff a boss that is getting one-shot by a top player , that same boss will take 20 minutes for an avg player .
if you nerf that same boss , the top players will not push themselves to make the best gear coz there is no point .

So what do you do?
i think GGG has constant talks about that, and they never fully agree .

so everything is all over the place , its a mess.

Boss taking 20 minutes for average player is straight untruth. I can imagine only heavy support focused specialised builds taking that long with bosses.

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Carinyc#0837 wrote:

Currently, there exists a culture of pretending in ARPG's and videogames in general; that using off-meta builds is a viable playstyle, and I'm tired of it.

In multiple games across the industry as a whole, using meta builds is objectively the way to go and you will arguably have a more enjoyable experience.

The good thing about Path of Exile, is that there are a large number of meta builds, which gives the illusion of choice. It is also most likely the case that statistically, some people have a meta build or some version of it through their own accord.

Personally, I find it fun to build towards a successful meta build as it gives me an objective outside of the game itself. I don't need to spend hours in spreadsheets and simulations to figure out what works because other people have already gone down those mathematical rabbit holes.

I think GGG should embrace meta gameplay even more, by even suggesting in-game the types of builds the player could work towards in the skill tree and with their items.

In any game that punishes you, players will always gravitate towards not getting punished and anyone who thinks otherwise is being dishonest.

This is not a good or logical take. Where on Earth do you think meta builds come from? They don't just spawn into existence out of the ether. They come from experimentation. What do meta builds represent? The consensus view of the most optimal combinations of skills and equipment. Do you think all optimal combinations, to say nothing of all viable combinations, have been found?

Just because you don't want to think or put in effort yourself doesn't mean inherently when using a meta build you aren't taking advantage of the efforts of others to experiment, to think, and to both theorize viable combinations and then test them to determine practical efficacy. *Someone* has to do the work, and then to pretend that them using a build which is not yet meta, and thus by definition "off meta" is not viable, is asinine as it's literally what makes you copying their work possible.

It's not that there's a "large number of meta builds", that misses the point entirely. It's that there's a large number of viable combinations. Folks will always be exploring those combinations and the others out there. Some will be viable, others will not. Some will surprise and emerge as the new strongest meta builds. But folks experimenting "off meta" isn't just viable, it's literally how the meta gets established in the first place and is a vital part of any game with build options.