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That's not saying they can't improve in-game information.
Imo they already have made big strides to do so with poe2 tooltips and extra-info you can bring up in-game and I'm sure they'll keep expanding on that, within what is reasonable to be shown as a tooltip.
But I don't think you'll ever excel at POE if you hate the idea of opening a website or reading something *out of game*.
what? Why are you suddenly attacking me? I thought I was agreeing with you. I'm doing just fine with poe2 in SSFHC.... Sure i'm not blasting uberbosses but I'm lvl 83 which is.. You know what I don't have to defend myself to you.
Didn't see anything in there that was an attack, but at the same time bringing up "hating the idea of opening a website" seems to miss the point.
And by excel, he's probably talking about getting to level 96-97+. Which seems irrelevant in any case.
It sounded to me like he was saying *I* would never get good, but after reading it again I see he could have been speaking generally.
I'm a bit defensive because anytime you have an opinion in this community all you hear is 'skill issue'. And considering his attitude in the OP I got the vibe he was like that.
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The problem with POE 2 is exactly the problem that got ported from POE 1: the game is trivial if you use only those specific builds; you know what I'm talking about.
If you use any other build you get a big mix of results, inconsistent results.
For years GGG kept repeating that, almost puke inducing at this moment, "make your own build, there are hundreds of choices, just experiment" line. Which we all know is BS.
Well, people (especially new players) do just that. They fail, because obviously, and then they complain; because for them it's not obvious that the game only works on specific builds.
To me that is ok. Because what is the alternative? The alternative would mean that everything is extremely streamlined and basically the same. Ergo boring.
In PoE knowledge was always part of the character power. The longer a player played the game, the more knowledge they accumulated the easier it was for them to make a build/play the game. That is due to the complexity of the game and the thousands of combinations of skills/supports/items/ascendancies.
In order to keep the game interesting for years you need this complexity to give long time players new things to try out. But on the other hand it is impossible to make everything the exact same power level. Furthermore, it is not even wanted that everything has the same power level.
If you find a quirky interaction or invest thousands of Divines in your build there should be an option to create an extremely powerful character. But these often use strange interactions of mechanics where you need a deep understanding of the game to figure it out. So we are back at knowledge.
So either keep the game interesting for years, but harder for newer players, that need to accumulate knowledge first. Or make it easier for newer players to start out but in turn make the game more boring and remove the longevity.
I think PoE 2 already did a good job to become a bit more newer player friendly while keeping most of the complexity for longtime players.
That's why the answer is providing easily accessible resources to help new players learn and understand, rather than nerfing the game. It's a decent amount of work for someone just now coming into the community: Finding what website are reputable, what content/build creators are reputable, how to use the trade site, how to use a loot filter, etc.
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to me its all about lowering the ceiling.
for me a good game rewards players for having good builds/gears by having a more fun time. more chance for mistakes, faster clearspeeds etc.
this is true for the most part but another half of the equation is that good builds/gear should not be the requirement.
this is whats happened in poe1. theres almost zero room to be inefficient. you need an utmost hyper efficient build to clear the hardest content.
the gap between good and decent is simply too huge.
so if we talking about balancing around BAD PLAYERS. i think yes they should.
but to a certain extent. not to the extent of giving out candies for free. but more of not requiring you to be hyper efficient.
to me the top content should be centered around players having capped res and having around 2.5-3k hp and other defences.
if some skills are over performing, nerf instead of buff others.
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Posted byexsea#1724on Jan 14, 2025, 9:57:35 PM
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this is true for the most part but another half of the equation is that good builds/gear should not be the requirement.
But for games like PoE this is the core principal everything evolves around. How could this not be a requirement?
The core gameloop for a game like PoE is to improve your gear. To go from a nobody washed up on the shore to a god deleting beast. That is the power fantasy games like these play into. Yes, skill plays a role, but it will never be as important as good gear. It can't be.
If you would remove this, you would have a completely different type of game in another genre. Almost like trying to convert Diablo 4 into a golf game.
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Posted byAvaricta#4758on Jan 14, 2025, 10:13:15 PM
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I'm trying not to sound elitist, because I don't think I am.
But I keep seeing threads pop up, where a user posts his experience and then asks for X or Y encounter/boss/mechanic to get nerfed or be removed.
Example:
User: I fought last sanctum boss for 18+ minutes and failed at 20%!!!
Bro, if you're needing 20min to bring ANY boss down to 20% hp, do you really not think there's an issue with your gear/build??
Sanctum is a JOKE with some honor resist relics and they drop like friggin' nonstop AND you can throw them in the 3to1 to keep ID'ing resist/max honor relics.
If you're SSF, run a few runs to get relics and then go for the actual run!
If you're in trade, you can literally grab resist relics for 1exalt.
If GGG balances every mechanic around people who barely invest time in fixing their character or understanding the mechanic of something they're doing, then we'll literally have another diablo4 on our hands which even Elon could pilot convincingly, what's the point then?
So experienced players using creative builds should reroll to whatever is powerful because it will trivialize the game? It's not about your build being powerful enough to "ez mode" all content, it's about all content being clearable for someone who is competent enough to do it. A person spending 20 minutes on a trial boss is a person who is obviously very competent at the game and has been considerate enough about their build to do so.
Balance should be approached in an opposite direction to what you're saying. Outliers should be brought up or down to fit the desired design of the game. It should not be balanced around whatever interaction or build is powerful at whatever time, or it will forever be chasing interactions that were overlooked while designing encounters, mechanics, items, etc. If outliers are allowed to exist and are supported for too long, we end up with poe 1.
If their design intent is to have another poe 1, so be it, if not, careful consideration will have to happen in regards to player power to keep it in line with their design intent, in the form of both nerf and buff of players and content. This is early access, so any information the players provide is incredibly useful, even if it's a person taking 20 minutes to almost clear a boss.
Last edited by Horky#6225 on Jan 14, 2025, 10:39:50 PM
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Posted byHorky#6225on Jan 14, 2025, 10:36:41 PM
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I'm trying not to sound elitist, because I don't think I am.
But I keep seeing threads pop up, where a user posts his experience and then asks for X or Y encounter/boss/mechanic to get nerfed or be removed.
Example:
User: I fought last sanctum boss for 18+ minutes and failed at 20%!!!
Bro, if you're needing 20min to bring ANY boss down to 20% hp, do you really not think there's an issue with your gear/build??
Sanctum is a JOKE with some honor resist relics and they drop like friggin' nonstop AND you can throw them in the 3to1 to keep ID'ing resist/max honor relics.
If you're SSF, run a few runs to get relics and then go for the actual run!
If you're in trade, you can literally grab resist relics for 1exalt.
If GGG balances every mechanic around people who barely invest time in fixing their character or understanding the mechanic of something they're doing, then we'll literally have another diablo4 on our hands which even Elon could pilot convincingly, what's the point then?
So experienced players using creative builds should reroll to whatever is powerful because it will trivialize the game? It's not about your build being powerful enough to "ez mode" all content, it's about all content being clearable for someone who is competent enough to do it. A person spending 20 minutes on a trial boss is a person who is obviously very competent at the game and has been considerate enough about their build to do so.
Balance should be approached in an opposite direction to what you're saying. Outliers should be brought up or down to fit the desired design of the game. It should not be balanced around whatever interaction or build is powerful at whatever time, or it will forever be chasing interactions that were overlooked while designing encounters, mechanics, items, etc. If outliers are allowed to exist and are supported for too long, we end up with poe 1.
If their design intent is to have another poe 1, so be it, if not, careful consideration will have to happen in regards to player power to keep it in line with their design intent, in the form of both nerf and buff of players and content. This is early access, so any information the players provide is incredibly useful, even if it's a person taking 20 minutes to almost clear a boss.
+1, tbh if poe2 just turns into poe1 i m done with poe as a franchise and will be done with ggg. no disrespect to them, they need to make money and if zoomers are their target, then the game is not for me
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Posted byexsea#1724on Jan 14, 2025, 10:48:23 PM
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I'm trying not to sound elitist, because I don't think I am.
No, but more like words I'm not allowed to say on here.
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Example:
User: I fought last sanctum boss for 18+ minutes and failed at 20%!!!
Bro, if you're needing 20min to bring ANY boss down to 20% hp, do you really not think there's an issue with your gear/build??
Honestly, the most pathetic attempt of disguised mockery I've seen so far. You replied in my thread, but you never replied to the actual point. No, instead, you mocked me for basically being a noob:
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Should GGG balance encounters around people who open their passive tree and random-click 80 skillpts and call it a day and expect to clear content/bosses?
Does this look like "random 80 skill points" to you?
Or can you understand that the whole point was to try and make the same build in PoE 2 and it's just orders of magnitude weaker? And it failed because Sanctum is an RNG fuckfest? You conveniently left out the fact that I mentioned I had the 40% less damage and 50% increased Monster Life afflictions, on a build that was already hitting a ceiling because of the current game state. And I still managed to stick it out for 18 minutes. And you are mocking me for it. Get a grip.
Gaming PC: Win 11, 7600X3D, RTX 4080, 32GB DDR5-6000 CL30, 7000 MB/s SSD, 850W, 3840x2160p 120Hz
Streaming PC: Win 11, i5-12400, RTX 4060, 32GB DDR5-6000 CL36, 7000 MB/s SSD, 450W, 1920x1080p 60Hz
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It's not about your build being powerful enough to "ez mode" all content, it's about all content being clearable for someone who is competent enough to do it. A person spending 20 minutes on a trial boss is a person who is obviously very competent at the game and has been considerate enough about their build to do so.
For bosses this is partially true. Because they do not have enrage timers or timeouts. So in theory a good player can do them with very little gear.
But for maps this is false. Maps with the amount of enemies and constant incoming damage you have hard gear checks. You either kill fast enough or be tanky enough to survive. So all content will never be clearable just with skill. This is just not that type of game. And it simply can't be.
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Posted byAvaricta#4758on Jan 14, 2025, 11:05:20 PM
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It's not about your build being powerful enough to "ez mode" all content, it's about all content being clearable for someone who is competent enough to do it. A person spending 20 minutes on a trial boss is a person who is obviously very competent at the game and has been considerate enough about their build to do so.
For bosses this is partially true. Because they do not have enrage timers or timeouts. So in theory a good player can do them with very little gear.
But for maps this is false. Maps with the amount of enemies and constant incoming damage you have hard gear checks. You either kill fast enough or be tanky enough to survive. So all content will never be clearable just with skill. This is just not that type of game. And it simply can't be.
The build this person is using is incredibly good at doing maps, but he was punished by trial mechanics and ultimately failed the boss due to the terribly designed honour mechanic. It's amazing that he lasted that long, lol
Last edited by Horky#6225 on Jan 14, 2025, 11:12:42 PM
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Posted byHorky#6225on Jan 14, 2025, 11:11:36 PM
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Mapping just isn't a useful metric, at all. There's lots of ways to deal with packs of mobs that don't require a lot of setup. I was popping whole screens even in T17 maps with corpse explosions from my Warcry, 35% of corpse life to be exact, which then got scaled with the % Phys and % generic damage that I was using. Meaning, from level 40 onwards (when I had access to Seismic Cry), the build was performing basically the same all the way through to T17 maps. Only the single target never improved much. And that's the problem. They have an entire Ascendancy built around fast Warcries and corpse popping, but the actual skill that uses it just currently has almost no viable scaling.
Gaming PC: Win 11, 7600X3D, RTX 4080, 32GB DDR5-6000 CL30, 7000 MB/s SSD, 850W, 3840x2160p 120Hz
Streaming PC: Win 11, i5-12400, RTX 4060, 32GB DDR5-6000 CL36, 7000 MB/s SSD, 450W, 1920x1080p 60Hz
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