Should GGG balance around them?

I'm trying not to sound elitist, because I don't think I am.

But I keep seeing threads pop up, where a user posts his experience and then asks for X or Y encounter/boss/mechanic to get nerfed or be removed.

Example:
User: I fought last sanctum boss for 18+ minutes and failed at 20%!!!

Bro, if you're needing 20min to bring ANY boss down to 20% hp, do you really not think there's an issue with your gear/build??

Sanctum is a JOKE with some honor resist relics and they drop like friggin' nonstop AND you can throw them in the 3to1 to keep ID'ing resist/max honor relics.

If you're SSF, run a few runs to get relics and then go for the actual run!
If you're in trade, you can literally grab resist relics for 1exalt.

If GGG balances every mechanic around people who barely invest time in fixing their character or understanding the mechanic of something they're doing, then we'll literally have another diablo4 on our hands which even Elon could pilot convincingly, what's the point then?

"

oestergreen#1184 wrote:

I'm trying not to sound elitist, because I don't think I am.

But I keep seeing threads pop up, where a user posts his experience and then asks for X or Y encounter/boss/mechanic to get nerfed or be removed.

Example:
User: I fought last sanctum boss for 18+ minutes and failed at 20%!!!

Bro, if you're needing 20min to bring ANY boss down to 20% hp, do you really not think there's an issue with your gear/build??

Sanctum is a JOKE with some honor resist relics and they drop like friggin' nonstop AND you can throw them in the 3to1 to keep ID'ing resist/max honor relics.

If you're SSF, run a few runs to get relics and then go for the actual run!
If you're in trade, you can literally grab resist relics for 1exalt.

If GGG balances every mechanic around people who barely invest time in fixing their character or understanding the mechanic of something they're doing, then we'll literally have another diablo4 on our hands which even Elon could pilot convincingly, what's the point then?

I think the problem is that people don't see how they could be building their character any better. Not everyone is a math undergrad who's flaking classes to play poe all day.

IMO they need transparency on how the mechanics actually work, IN GAME. Like armor for example. Show us more information about how it works and is calculated, because just saying it 'reduces 80% of damage' when that's not at all what it's doing is super misleading. This has been a problem since the very beginning of poe1 and they never budge on it. If it says you reduce 80% of damage but are getting 1 tapped constantly in maps you're going to think the game is just shit and over-tuned. Obviously.

A tutorial for how to scale damage and defenses IN GAME would also be very welcome and make the game accessible for new players (at least the ones willing to learn).

"

bassphenomenon#2281 wrote:

"

oestergreen#1184 wrote:

I'm trying not to sound elitist, because I don't think I am.

But I keep seeing threads pop up, where a user posts his experience and then asks for X or Y encounter/boss/mechanic to get nerfed or be removed.

Example:
User: I fought last sanctum boss for 18+ minutes and failed at 20%!!!

Bro, if you're needing 20min to bring ANY boss down to 20% hp, do you really not think there's an issue with your gear/build??

Sanctum is a JOKE with some honor resist relics and they drop like friggin' nonstop AND you can throw them in the 3to1 to keep ID'ing resist/max honor relics.

If you're SSF, run a few runs to get relics and then go for the actual run!
If you're in trade, you can literally grab resist relics for 1exalt.

If GGG balances every mechanic around people who barely invest time in fixing their character or understanding the mechanic of something they're doing, then we'll literally have another diablo4 on our hands which even Elon could pilot convincingly, what's the point then?

I think the problem is that people don't see how they could be building their character any better. Not everyone is a math undergrad who's flaking classes to play poe all day.

IMO they need transparency on how the mechanics actually work, IN GAME. Like armor for example. Show us more information about how it works and is calculated, because just saying it 'reduces 80% of damage' when that's not at all what it's doing is super misleading. This has been a problem since the very beginning of poe1 and they never budge on it. If it says you reduce 80% of damage but are getting 1 tapped constantly in maps you're going to think the game is just shit and over-tuned. Obviously.

A tutorial for how to scale damage and defenses IN GAME would also be very welcome and make the game accessible for new players (at least the ones willing to learn).

They are already working on adding far more things as in-game tooltips, hence how the new character sheet works where you can hover many stats and read directly what they do, as well as the dotted lines on items where you can hold alt to read a tooltip popup and the passive tree, holding shift on a node to see an estimated DPS gain.

However, you're a bit conflicting on your statement imo.
You say "we're not math undergrads flaking class to play poe".

Well, why would you want complicated equations shown in-game then?
Not everything can easily be boiled down to a tooltip.

POE is known to be more complex than a game like Diablo.
I don't think GGG has to cater to the same audience, since there are already 2 very distinct games on the market.

If you are very casual and just want simple to understand systems, then diablo is perfect. If you are looking for something a bit more in-depth and where you can sink far more hours in... you have POE.

That's not saying they can't improve in-game information.
Imo they already have made big strides to do so with poe2 tooltips and extra-info you can bring up in-game and I'm sure they'll keep expanding on that, within what is reasonable to be shown as a tooltip.

But I don't think you'll ever excel at POE if you hate the idea of opening a website or reading something *out of game*.

During campaign, the RNG on loot and lack of ability to re-craft things means there's a huge disparity in player power. You may have had an easy time doing the trials, others have not. but it's not entirely a skill issue.

eg, i bought a staff with +4 skills really early on (act 2?) and it carried me through to early maps. My friends never had anything better than +1 in the shops during campaign.

They shouldn't nerf content to make the bottom tier players able to limp through it. Players just need the tools to get themselves out of the bottom tier, besides luck... and a quad type full of wands to recombine.

"

oestergreen#1184 wrote:

"

bassphenomenon#2281 wrote:

"

oestergreen#1184 wrote:

I'm trying not to sound elitist, because I don't think I am.

But I keep seeing threads pop up, where a user posts his experience and then asks for X or Y encounter/boss/mechanic to get nerfed or be removed.

Example:
User: I fought last sanctum boss for 18+ minutes and failed at 20%!!!

Bro, if you're needing 20min to bring ANY boss down to 20% hp, do you really not think there's an issue with your gear/build??

Sanctum is a JOKE with some honor resist relics and they drop like friggin' nonstop AND you can throw them in the 3to1 to keep ID'ing resist/max honor relics.

If you're SSF, run a few runs to get relics and then go for the actual run!
If you're in trade, you can literally grab resist relics for 1exalt.

If GGG balances every mechanic around people who barely invest time in fixing their character or understanding the mechanic of something they're doing, then we'll literally have another diablo4 on our hands which even Elon could pilot convincingly, what's the point then?

I think the problem is that people don't see how they could be building their character any better. Not everyone is a math undergrad who's flaking classes to play poe all day.

IMO they need transparency on how the mechanics actually work, IN GAME. Like armor for example. Show us more information about how it works and is calculated, because just saying it 'reduces 80% of damage' when that's not at all what it's doing is super misleading. This has been a problem since the very beginning of poe1 and they never budge on it. If it says you reduce 80% of damage but are getting 1 tapped constantly in maps you're going to think the game is just shit and over-tuned. Obviously.

A tutorial for how to scale damage and defenses IN GAME would also be very welcome and make the game accessible for new players (at least the ones willing to learn).

They are already working on adding far more things as in-game tooltips, hence how the new character sheet works where you can hover many stats and read directly what they do, as well as the dotted lines on items where you can hold alt to read a tooltip popup and the passive tree, holding shift on a node to see an estimated DPS gain.

However, you're a bit conflicting on your statement imo.
You say "we're not math undergrads flaking class to play poe".

Well, why would you want complicated equations shown in-game then?
Not everything can easily be boiled down to a tooltip.

POE is known to be more complex than a game like Diablo.
I don't think GGG has to cater to the same audience, since there are already 2 very distinct games on the market.

If you are very casual and just want simple to understand systems, then diablo is perfect. If you are looking for something a bit more in-depth and where you can sink far more hours in... you have POE.

That's not saying they can't improve in-game information.
Imo they already have made big strides to do so with poe2 tooltips and extra-info you can bring up in-game and I'm sure they'll keep expanding on that, within what is reasonable to be shown as a tooltip.

But I don't think you'll ever excel at POE if you hate the idea of opening a website or reading something *out of game*.

what? Why are you suddenly attacking me? I thought I was agreeing with you. I'm doing just fine with poe2 in SSFHC.... Sure i'm not blasting uberbosses but I'm lvl 83 which is.. You know what I don't have to defend myself to you.

I think the numbers should be there for the math people, transparency is always good, but I also said it would be nice if there were also tutorials that explain it in simpler terms for people who don't crunch numbers.

I'm not alone in not wanting to alt tab every 5 minutes to use some 3rd party website, or have to download 15 mods/programs (this is why I eventually stopped playing poe1, it's tiring). I do do it though, unlike a lot of people who will just quit the game because they don't understand what's going on and are struggling.

"

bassphenomenon#2281 wrote:

"

oestergreen#1184 wrote:

That's not saying they can't improve in-game information.
Imo they already have made big strides to do so with poe2 tooltips and extra-info you can bring up in-game and I'm sure they'll keep expanding on that, within what is reasonable to be shown as a tooltip.

But I don't think you'll ever excel at POE if you hate the idea of opening a website or reading something *out of game*.

what? Why are you suddenly attacking me? I thought I was agreeing with you. I'm doing just fine with poe2 in SSFHC.... Sure i'm not blasting uberbosses but I'm lvl 83 which is.. You know what I don't have to defend myself to you.

Didn't see anything in there that was an attack, but at the same time bringing up "hating the idea of opening a website" seems to miss the point.

And by excel, he's probably talking about getting to level 96-97+. Which seems irrelevant in any case.

i am a long time Poe1 Player. 7 or 8 Years now, i cant remember excactly.
But poe2 is the first time, that i can play without using
Pob Bin or other tools on Console.

With the Gold respec, i can just play arround with mechanics -


"oh i died again, because of stun?" "Hmm lets try Stun Streshhold"

"Oh , when my Energy shield ist gone, it gets Wild with my Hybrid build... Lets take this point, that Life Flask recharge Energy and not life" ...

a.s.o

There is so much room for experimentation and its the same for the Sanctum Trial.

I think the people, who only following Streamers and their Builds, will fail in the long term of having fun.
A Early Acess should be enough to stress everyone down, to just have fun and play around with what they got.

U Found a unique? Test it.

Or like me, test everything with poison -
Poison shock crit Monk - Frost poision - Hexblast Poison - Totem Bleeding with aftershock .

Oh i cant kill bosses with this build ? - who cares, just try another build.

I got 4 lvl 80 - 95 chars and just experiment arround.

We dont need balance changes to classes or something like that - we just need more content ( that will come out soon ) , to experiment further.
After that, the devs can Balance change everthing to their likings.
Until then its a good idear to fix the big Oneshots.

A 90% Resistance cap 3500 - 4000 Life char, should not one shot die on a effect, that he got resistance to. And GGG now it, and will tune this down.

Players that just copy paste and want everything else to get nerfed, are not the person u should balance around - the devs first of all, should balance arround their own vision - its their game

The problem with POE 2 is exactly the problem that got ported from POE 1: the game is trivial if you use only those specific builds; you know what I'm talking about.
If you use any other build you get a big mix of results, inconsistent results.


For years GGG kept repeating that, almost puke inducing at this moment, "make your own build, there are hundreds of choices, just experiment" line. Which we all know is BS.

Well, people (especially new players) do just that. They fail, because obviously, and then they complain; because for them it's not obvious that the game only works on specific builds.

"

lupasvasile#5385 wrote:

The problem with POE 2 is exactly the problem that got ported from POE 1: the game is trivial if you use only those specific builds; you know what I'm talking about.
If you use any other build you get a big mix of results, inconsistent results.


For years GGG kept repeating that, almost puke inducing at this moment, "make your own build, there are hundreds of choices, just experiment" line. Which we all know is BS.

Well, people (especially new players) do just that. They fail, because obviously, and then they complain; because for them it's not obvious that the game only works on specific builds.

ya but we aren't talking about 3 builds here, probably 2 dozen or so that work, and each has a tons of variations based on budget/playstyle other tweaks. But ya there is also a lot of dogshit out there that are complete noob traps.

Its not like you have to play spark, DD, or LA. Minions and melee are kind of dogwater by comparison, but they are still serviceable and theres tons of builds that work in between. It sucks that chaos spells, phys spells, and fire spells (without conversion or ignite) is trash right now, but at least its not like you have to play a handful of builds to succeed.

I dont think its too much to ask for new players to go get an idea of what works, and what doesn't. They don't have to follow a build guide to the T. Im pretty confident that if you pick LA and thats all they know is its good and they do everything else themselves it will be fine, or if they pick pconc, or totems, or spark without any idea of tree, gear etc. if they have any brain capacity they will make it work. But if they go in blind, have the misfortune of playing fireball, or whatever phys spells etc. its gonna be awful.

"

lupasvasile#5385 wrote:

The problem with POE 2 is exactly the problem that got ported from POE 1: the game is trivial if you use only those specific builds; you know what I'm talking about.
If you use any other build you get a big mix of results, inconsistent results.


For years GGG kept repeating that, almost puke inducing at this moment, "make your own build, there are hundreds of choices, just experiment" line. Which we all know is BS.

Well, people (especially new players) do just that. They fail, because obviously, and then they complain; because for them it's not obvious that the game only works on specific builds.

To me that is ok. Because what is the alternative? The alternative would mean that everything is extremely streamlined and basically the same. Ergo boring.

In PoE knowledge was always part of the character power. The longer a player played the game, the more knowledge they accumulated the easier it was for them to make a build/play the game. That is due to the complexity of the game and the thousands of combinations of skills/supports/items/ascendancies.

In order to keep the game interesting for years you need this complexity to give long time players new things to try out. But on the other hand it is impossible to make everything the exact same power level. Furthermore, it is not even wanted that everything has the same power level.

If you find a quirky interaction or invest thousands of Divines in your build there should be an option to create an extremely powerful character. But these often use strange interactions of mechanics where you need a deep understanding of the game to figure it out. So we are back at knowledge.

So either keep the game interesting for years, but harder for newer players, that need to accumulate knowledge first. Or make it easier for newer players to start out but in turn make the game more boring and remove the longevity.

I think PoE 2 already did a good job to become a bit more newer player friendly while keeping most of the complexity for longtime players.