Is everyone wrong about warstaff sockets?
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Screw it here we go as people who defend % PHYS Runes always cry the staves being compared here is a real world example.
We will use 2 staves, both deal 100-100 Physical Damage both have ASP of 1.0 Staff 1 will have 2 Phys Runes so 140 DPS Staff 2 will have 2 EMDWA So 100 DPS + 60% ELM damage added If we are using say Storm Wave for clearing here is the rough math using my own tree and we will not go into all the insane math but for the sake of this we are only concerned with the 1 sentence that makes this debate even a thing and that is this is a conversion skill specifically 80% of physical is converted to lightning 78% ELM dmg 25% increased cold damage 48% lightning damage 50% increased cold damage herald 50% increased lightning damage herald 93% increased attack damage 15% Extra Cold Damage 5% Extra Lightning Damage BASE STAFF NO RUNES NOTHING Staff 1 100 *.80 = 80L 20P (conversion) 80 * 1.73 = 138.4L (Adding ELM +%) 138.4 + 20 = 158.4 * .93 = 147.31 + 158.4 = 305.71 (Adding INC ATK %) 305.71 * .20 = 61.14 + 305.71 = 366.85 total DPS (adding % EXTRA elm dmg SUM) STAFF WITH 40% INCREASED PHYS RUNES 140 * .80 = 112L 28P (Conversion) 112 * 1.73 = 193.76L (Adding ELM +%) 193.76 + 28 = 221.76 * .93 = 206.23 + 221.76 = 427.99 (Adding INC ATK %) 427.99 * .20 = 89.59 + 427.99 = 517.58 total DPS (adding % EXTRA elm dmg SUM) STAFF WITH 60% ELM 100 * .80 = 80L 20P (Conversion) 80 * 2.33 = 186.4 (Adding ELM +%) 186 + 20 = 206 * .93 = 191.58 + 206 = 397.58 (Adding INC ATK %) 397.58 * .20 = 79.51 + 397.58 = 477.09 (adding % EXTRA elm dmg SUM) So Between 40% Phys runes and 60% Cores the cores IN A VACCUM is 7.82% lower. But we dont live in a vaccum and this imaginary weapon in this example does not exist. If I added in my Gloves and rings it would absolutely DOMINATE a 40% Phys rune. The problem is people go to trade trying to figure out what is an upgrade. So many people will check DPS. But DPS on any conversion build is only PART of the equation and most players cant see past a raw DPS number. Like oh This staff is 100 DPS more than the other staff but the other staff has 2 extra levels of melee or has 130% more EDOA etc etc. But when we focus purely on the conversation of Iron Rune vs Core 99% of the time Core is correct. An exception would be NON converstion builds or 1300DPS phys staves but thats .00001 of the player base. Toss a Chaos to your Leader
OH Red Maps a Plenty oh Red Maps a Plenty OHHH Toss a Chaos to your Leader |
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completely depends on the build, passive tree and the weapon
it's impossible to say that one of them is always better than the other if your weapon has a very fat flat roll, but low %, iron rune is likely to be much more damage if your weapon already has tons of % phys, iron rune is less likely to be better if your tree/gear has a lot of generic damage, the soul core is less likely to be better it's not hard to do the math, just add up the numbers "buff grenades" - Buff Grenades (Buff-Grenades) Last edited by auspexa#1404 on Jan 8, 2025, 1:04:17 AM
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" See, you calculate arround HoWA, thats why you write "my rings + gloves"! HoWA is a unique case as there is literally no other item that gives you that huge amount of flat damage. Yes, for HoWA, %ele to attacks is better! A niche case for a currently extremely unbalanced item. An outlier among outliers that i even mentioned in my first post here! But if you take HoWA out of the equation, if you dont have godlike rings with ingenuity belt, flat damage on weapons will be better. And that is most cases for most players!!! You are trying to make a norm out of outlier examples. Waste of an argument!!! Last edited by way2stupid#9491 on Jan 8, 2025, 4:15:05 AM
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" I am not getting into the staff discussion. But your math on all the examples is wrong. Every increase is combined to one single multiplier. You are misusing different increases multiplicative. For example: 50% increased cold damage 50% increased attack damage If you have a cold spell you get 50% increased damage. If you use a cold attack you get 100% increased damage. Not 50% increased and the result again 50% increase. With 100 cold damage your flawed example for an attack would yield 100 * (1 + 0.5) * (1 + 0.5) = 225. Where in reality it is only 100 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.5) = 200. The elemental and physical part have to be calculated independently and then added together. Each is only effected by the sum of the applicable increases. PoE is very strict with the wording. Every increase is always additive. Whereas every more is always multiplicative. Increased physical damage on weapon is local and is applied before any other calculations, it applies to the base damage. Increased elemental damage on weapon is global and works as another increase. Same as every increase node from the tree and is simply added to these increases (that was correct in your example). Last edited by Avaricta#4758 on Jan 8, 2025, 4:20:12 AM
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Sorry but why is this not obvious. You are losing 122% elemental Damage from your first staff. To compare this properly you need an equivalent of your first staff and put Phys runes in it.
Edit: Ok I typed this in a bit of annoyance but to be more decisive without going into the maths, there is not enough information given here. If you have rings/gloves with Elemental Damage then it may push ahead over the physical. The best way to test Ele Vs Phys runes is to do the following. Get two Staffs at 200 DPS Each with Similar stats. Try to avoid Flat Ele damage on them but get the ele % increase. Get another 2 at 300 DPS Each with similar stats to the first 2 (I am using low dps numbers as they should be cheap it can be w/e DPS you want) Socket the different runes into each staff and compare them. What you are mainly looking for is whether or not the difference between the dps at 200 DPS and 300 DPS changes. For eg: If set one pulls ahead with the Phys runes by 20% dps. Does this difference lesson or increase with set 2? You should also do this test naked and then test with flat ele damage rings/gloves to see how much the difference between the two is there as well. Last edited by Cyriac_Darakus#1022 on Jan 8, 2025, 9:56:16 AM
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" Bold assumption but no I do not use HOWA. Gloves/rings 46-73 cold 24-38 fire 2-151 lightning And yes I do have very powerful rings but again we only need to bridge 7.82% even some cheapie 1ex ring would do that no problem. And outlier examples? My dude I would think it safe to say 90%+ Monks DO CONVERSION and have ELM related gains on skill tree to synergise with that fact. Why do you dweebs come out of your holes to defend people running unoptimized low tier builds?! Toss a Chaos to your Leader
OH Red Maps a Plenty oh Red Maps a Plenty OHHH Toss a Chaos to your Leader |
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" Can you site the source as I was under the impression increased attack would be calculated after the elmental damage as obviously we are not doing true poe math with APS and vs res armor etc Toss a Chaos to your Leader
OH Red Maps a Plenty oh Red Maps a Plenty OHHH Toss a Chaos to your Leader |
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" From the PoE 2 Wiki: https://www.poe2wiki.net/wiki/Receiving_damage " In PoE 1 this has been the case for forever now. And it did not change in PoE 2. They only changed the way conversion interacts with damage increases. So if 50% physical is converted to fire, increased physical would only effect the 50% left, not all 100% base damage like it would in PoE 1. The conversion thing has been stated by GGG in some interviews and a few times in various threads here in the forum. |
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yeah all forms of increased damage that apply are additive and any portions of your damage that are effected by different sources of increase are calculated in parallel and summed at the end.
thats why were saying getting global increased damage on the sockets could be better and could be worse depending how much other increased damage is in the build. i actually think a fully optimised build is more likely to want the phys runes because when you have a perfect phys weapon theres so much flat damage on it to be multiplied nd youve probably squeezed a lot of increase out of the tree. I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :)
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" This is going to be life until they update Path of Building |
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