Archmage is NOT the Problem

TL;DR: “+N Level to (Cold/Fire/Lightning/All) Spell Skills” resulting in an exponential increase to the base value of skills is overpowered, as nearly all other modifiers are scalar.

Disclaimer: 99% of my time played is on Stormweaver Sorceress. While it’s true that I know very little about the scaling of other classes, I believe that most of what I have here applies to them as well. I also have no experience in PoE 1, so I’m unaware if these problems have existed before.

Let me get straight to the point with the so-called “hot take”:

Archmage is NOT the problem.

Instead, a single modifier is dominating everyone’s itemization choices, warping the in-game economy and significantly stifling build diversity. “+ N Level to (Cold/Fire/Lightning/All) Spell Skills” (“+Levels” for short) is extremely unbalanced and should be removed from the game almost entirely. The only exceptions that should be made are for uniques, such as Fireflower or Levinstone, or notables on the passive skill tree.

To understand why +Levels is such a problem, we must understand the nature of damage scaling with respect to skill level. If you look at nearly any ability in the “Elemental” category on PoE2DB, you’ll notice that skill base damage scales exponentially with skill level.

At lower skill levels, this is less of a problem. After all, exponential scaling is, by nature, less noticeable at lower variable values. However, as skills reach level 20 and beyond, the difference becomes staggering.

However, most (if not all) other scaling is multiplicative; scalar. Consider the following example with the other directly damage-related modifiers: “+% (Cold/Lightning/Fire/Spell) Damage”, using the max value for a single modifier:

Max Level 20 Spark Damage (per projectile)

No Modifier = 229
120% = 503
+1 = 257
+2 = 289
+3 = 324
+4 = 363
+5 = 406
+6 = 455

These values look fine, right? The thing is, these modifiers are not applied in a vacuum during normal gameplay. You must factor in the bonuses provided from the passive tree, which are almost all scalar in nature. These bonuses cause the exponential base scaling from +Levels to be overwhelming. Consider the same example as above, with an easily-attainable total of 100% Increased Spell Damage from the passive tree:

Max Level 20 Spark Damage (per projectile)

No Modifier = 229
120% + 100% = 732
+1 + 100% = 514
+2 + 100% = 578
+3 + 100% = 648
+4 + 100% = 726
+5 + 100% = 812
+6 + 100% = 910

Again, this is with just a 100% passive modifier, not including what comes on gear with other modifiers and from other passives. Consider another 100% bonus from passives and/or other gear modifiers (again, easily attainable):

Max Level 20 Spark Damage (per projectile)

No Modifier = 229
120% + 200% = 961
+1 + 200% = 771
+2 + 200% = 867
+3 + 200% = 972
+4 + 200% = 1089
+5 + 200% = 1218
+6 + 200% = 1365

Thus, it becomes obvious that +Levels is far more impactful than any other single damage-scaling modifier on gear because it exponentially modifies the base damage of the skill. This is reflected by the severe economic skew towards wands, staves, and other weapons with the max +Levels modifier on them.

But this is not the only problem with the +Levels modifier. A not-so-obvious consequence of using +Levels is that the mana costs grow alongside the base damage of the skill at a similar rate. At first glance, you might think that this is the balancing trade-off. I would agree, but I think this makes matters even worse.

Because +Levels is so overwhelmingly strong, players are inclined to build around it and mitigate its sole downside. This has resulted in mana-modifier gear being disproportionately valuable versus other modifiers.

Enter Archmage, a build strategy that encourages the very same mana-modifier stacking that mitigates the downsides of +Levels, while multiplicatively scaling the exponential increases granted by +Levels by a huge amount. This is why Archmage appears to be overtuned: because +Levels benefits from Archmage significantly more than any other single effect or passive.

Now that we’ve addressed most of the problems, let’s talk solutions. I believe the only way to balance +Levels is to remove it from all non-uniques and replace it with additive or multiplicative modifiers.

“Just change the scaling of skill gems!” - At first, this seems like a viable solution. However, it’s likely that GGG has balanced the game progression around the current scaling of skill gems. Changing it could result in a worse leveling and/or endgame experience.

“Reduce the exponential scaling at higher levels!” - I don’t think this is the solution either. The exponential scaling should be something attainable with restriction, such as using a unique or passive tree notable. It should be special and powerful, but not available on every weapon in the game.

I think the best solution is to replace +Levels with a scalar modifier of the same tier. This will cause only a mild diminishment in the economic value of the items, as the modifier slot still provides the same benefit as before: more damage. Scalar modifiers also have a finer distribution, while +Levels only has N possible values.

But please, let me know your thoughts! Do you like +Levels, and believe it should stay? If so, why?

Problem is obviously MOM.

Anything that can scale both attack and defense is going to be blatantly OP period.

The problem isnt with Archmage or Sorc. It is litterally that there are only a few builds that can get to endgame. Even fewer that can clear trials with moderate ease. I am not worried. This is early access. We are absolutely getting a wipe atleast soon. I want BUFFS to power, not NERFS to others. We are complaining all wrong.

Name one time GGG nerfed something and buffed everything else? Never. Look at melee. Please spread this message on. Buff more classes. No nerfs.

I agree. Although I think "+Levels" might be a more descriptive short-hand.

This affix is so powerful, that every unique weapon I get I'm instantly disappointed to see it doesn't have +Levels to spells.

Must-haves must not exist.

And the same can be said about Movement Speed. Base movement speed is so horribly slow that I will not wear any boots that don't have movement speed, except in the very early game when I don't have the choice.

And the same can be said about Item Rarity.

IMO these things should either be removed, or be put on Uniques, or have their own gear item slot.

For example, remove Item Rarity from everything but Charms and Uniques. Then make them roll on any Charm.

Remove Movement Speed from affixes and make them appear only on Uniques and on a rune that can only slot in Boots.

Rmmove +Levels for all spells and skills, except on Uniques and Runes.

Archmage is the problem, for the exact reasons you've shown in your post titled "Archmage is not the problem".

Colour me confused.

There are a number of issues and missteps with the post. I had intended to go through and point them out, but there are really too many to indicate that you have a good grasp of where the scalar factors are causing issues and not. +level to skills is intentionally strong, but not nearly as strong as you claim it to be, and certainly not exponential in its scaling. In fact, by the time you reach high gem levels, +skills are nearly universally linear scalars on the base damage.

Here are the scaling factors based on your own numbers:

"

Max Level 20 Spark Damage (per projectile)

No Modifier = 229
+1 = 257 12.2%
+2 = 289 12.1%
+3 = 324 10.9%
+4 = 363 12.0%
+5 = 406 11.8%
+6 = 455 12.1%

Max Level 20 Spark Damage (per projectile)

No Modifier +100% = 458
+1 + 100% = 514 12.2%
+2 + 100% = 578 12.4%
+3 + 100% = 648 12.1%
+4 + 100% = 726 12.0%
+5 + 100% = 812 11.8%
+6 + 100% = 910 12.1%

Max Level 20 Spark Damage (per projectile)

No Modifier +200% = 678
+1 + 200% = 771 13.7%
+2 + 200% = 867 12.4%
+3 + 200% = 972 12.1%
+4 + 200% = 1089 12.0%
+5 + 200% = 1218 11.8%
+6 + 200% = 1365 12.1%

The reason that Archmage is the problem is very clearly outlined in your post; it offers a MASSIVE extra term that simultaneously scales infinite resource generation and defense as well. Needless to say, when you're getting into the thousands and thousands of mana, you have a scaling factor into the 250%+ that also scales defense and infinite resources; the impact of +skills is multiplied by this factor, and every other single factor is dwarfed in comparison.

There are a number of moving parts that are part of this singular issue, but the lynchpin that makes them all function together is Archmage. MoM is also up there, especially with it now covering 100% of damage, but the reality is that its the damage scaling that makes the rest of the package so insanely valuable.

Archmage is most definitely a problem. When a single ability more than doubles the damage, then there is no other choice.

Look at the other possibility... more damage. And it goes to over 70%. Good right? Well, no, because it spends 2/3rds of the time on the wrong damage type. And you can't exactly use 3 damage types well, because of support gem limitations and, quite frankly, most spells being kind of lackluster barring heavy investment into them.

Is it the only problem? Also no. Yeah, all the skill stacking gets silly, and this isn't only a sorceress thing. Minion builds stack it like crazy as well. It's a universal scaling one. Shock, especially double shock, is also rather borked, being yet another multiplier to your damage that other damage types generally don't get, barring chaos with wither, but chaos is more more limited in availability.

Overall, though, GGG needs to take a serious look at how out of hand all the various bits of multiplicative scaling get, and then reign that garbage in, as well as adjust things like breaches and rituals so that they don't make you feel like you're forced into instant room clearing builds.

"

Axterix13#5693 wrote:

Archmage is most definitely a problem. When a single ability more than doubles the damage, then there is no other choice.

Look at the other possibility... more damage. And it goes to over 70%. Good right? Well, no, because it spends 2/3rds of the time on the wrong damage type. And you can't exactly use 3 damage types well, because of support gem limitations and, quite frankly, most spells being kind of lackluster barring heavy investment into them.

Is it the only problem? Also no. Yeah, all the skill stacking gets silly, and this isn't only a sorceress thing. Minion builds stack it like crazy as well. It's a universal scaling one. Shock, especially double shock, is also rather borked, being yet another multiplier to your damage that other damage types generally don't get, barring chaos with wither, but chaos is more more limited in availability.

Overall, though, GGG needs to take a serious look at how out of hand all the various bits of multiplicative scaling get, and then reign that garbage in, as well as adjust things like breaches and rituals so that they don't make you feel like you're forced into instant room clearing builds.

To be clear, none of the other things you mentioned are remotely close in powerlevel to archmage, without even considering the non-offensive implications. Like; not in the ballpark. Archmage offers MASSIVELY more damage, as well as allowing you to scale defense to get it.

Going from +0 skills to +6 skills gives you around 100% more damage. Double shock stacking (does it scale multiplicatively on itself? dont know) gives either 40% or 44% more damage. Wither gives 50% more damage, if you can maintain 10 stacks. All of these options are capped at these values (+skills can go higher with dual wielding etc etc, but still won't reach archmage damage levels at full maximum everywhere.

Archmage at say, 5000mana, gives 250% more damage. There are builds aiming at 10,000+ mana, and is uncapped; the more mana you get, the more it gives.

"

Here are the scaling factors based on your own numbers:

The relationship you showed here with your percentages is exponential.

Consider the following simpler example:

2 (100% increase from last)
4 (100% increase from last)
8 (100% increase from last)
16 (100% increase from last)
32 (100% increase from last)
64 (100% increase from last)

While more extreme, this is the most basic example of exponential growth, and your values reflect what I'm observing.

It's the same idea as compound interest in a bank account, which is definitively exponential.

Saying that it's linear is just plain wrong.

Oh, I think you're underestimating Shock. There's a reason why minion builds run a single storm sorc with the "shock doesn't go away due to ignite" gem. There's a reason Monks build up the magnitude for it. Not hard to get like a straight up 50% damage multiplier on a boss with it. And, well, if Archmage is doubling your damage, guess what happens when you take that resulting 200% and make the boss take 50% more? Yeah, you're now at 300%. But then there's double shock, which is its own multiplier. So now you're at 450%.

Then there's things like Monks double (or more) stacking the Bell...

Also, Archmage doesn't allow you to scale defense to get it. Rather, Archmage has synergy with an overpowered defense, but at the same time, that defense cuts mana regen in half, which severely limits Archmage. You basically have to go all in if you want to combine MoM and Archmage. It is a huge investment, and bringing Archmage into balance (which would probably take cutting it down to 1/3rd or 1/4th of its current power) would also help make going the MoM route more costly, and consequently, more balanced. But even without MoM, Archmage is busted.

"

Oh, I think you're underestimating Shock.

I didn't factor in Shock with my example here, but I can definitely agree that the whole "Archmage is OP" thing is because of multiple factors. To me, +Levels is the most problematic one, but it certainly doesn't help that +20% damage taken (minimum) is intrinsic on the damage type that Archmage deals.