Exp loss on death topics are getting out of hand.

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iMirageX#4580 wrote:

The proof the you wanted isn't something an individual can give you but if you think and observe carefully, there are already builds out there that deletes pinnacle bosses in less than 5 seconds and they "put" a bit of defense/ehp to actually not die in one flick. Now if you cannot see what your "removal" of penalty is going to entail if builds like this exist now, then you may have a problem. In the first place, asking someone to provide proof when you yourself don't provide one is kinda rude? Where is your proof that build diversity will broaden when exp penalty is removed? Aren't you thinking backwards? Why would you build defense if dying doesn't have consequences much less have 6 portals? You're gonna say "Oh, no I will still build defense even if exp loss was removed" like, who are you lying too?

That ones very easy, I cannot believe you would make your own argument so weak. What's the most popular class again in the genre? Ah yes, Paladin.
What do (many) people do (and think) when they think of this class?
Dude in heavy armor who tanks it all and smacks people with divine lightning.
They imagine running around in a Shield and repelling all attacks, a tank. It fulfills a fantasy, people want to do that in an action ROLE PLAYING game. Fulfill their own fantasy.
People like beefy builds because it fulfills a fantasy and is fun.
Same reason some like summoners whether they are bad or not.
You are so distanced from reality it is shocking sometimes, play other games and interact with people so you can understand how the average person operates because this is becoming an obstacle to your own perception of reality.

Not necessarily true for everyone. I’m a beefy DILF irl so I normally gravitate towards squishy glass canons in ARPGs.

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BK2710#6123 wrote:

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iMirageX#4580 wrote:

The proof the you wanted isn't something an individual can give you but if you think and observe carefully, there are already builds out there that deletes pinnacle bosses in less than 5 seconds and they "put" a bit of defense/ehp to actually not die in one flick. Now if you cannot see what your "removal" of penalty is going to entail if builds like this exist now, then you may have a problem. In the first place, asking someone to provide proof when you yourself don't provide one is kinda rude? Where is your proof that build diversity will broaden when exp penalty is removed? Aren't you thinking backwards? Why would you build defense if dying doesn't have consequences much less have 6 portals? You're gonna say "Oh, no I will still build defense even if exp loss was removed" like, who are you lying too?

That ones very easy, I cannot believe you would make your own argument so weak. What's the most popular class again in the genre? Ah yes, Paladin.
What do (many) people do (and think) when they think of this class?
Dude in heavy armor who tanks it all and smacks people with divine lightning.
They imagine running around in a Shield and repelling all attacks, a tank. It fulfills a fantasy, people want to do that in an action ROLE PLAYING game. Fulfill their own fantasy.
People like beefy builds because it fulfills a fantasy and is fun.
Same reason some like summoners whether they are bad or not.
You are so distanced from reality it is shocking sometimes, play other games and interact with people so you can understand how the average person operates because this is becoming an obstacle to your own perception of reality.

Another lie.

Just google already tells you people 'd rather play assassins, rangers and mages instead of paladins in poe, actually down in the bottom of the %played.

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BK2710#6123 wrote:

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iMirageX#4580 wrote:

The proof the you wanted isn't something an individual can give you but if you think and observe carefully, there are already builds out there that deletes pinnacle bosses in less than 5 seconds and they "put" a bit of defense/ehp to actually not die in one flick. Now if you cannot see what your "removal" of penalty is going to entail if builds like this exist now, then you may have a problem. In the first place, asking someone to provide proof when you yourself don't provide one is kinda rude? Where is your proof that build diversity will broaden when exp penalty is removed? Aren't you thinking backwards? Why would you build defense if dying doesn't have consequences much less have 6 portals? You're gonna say "Oh, no I will still build defense even if exp loss was removed" like, who are you lying too?

That ones very easy, I cannot believe you would make your own argument so weak. What's the most popular class again in the genre? Ah yes, Paladin.
What do (many) people do (and think) when they think of this class?
Dude in heavy armor who tanks it all and smacks people with divine lightning.
They imagine running around in a Shield and repelling all attacks, a tank. It fulfills a fantasy, people want to do that in an action ROLE PLAYING game. Fulfill their own fantasy.
People like beefy builds because it fulfills a fantasy and is fun.
Same reason some like summoners whether they are bad or not.
You are so distanced from reality it is shocking sometimes, play other games and interact with people so you can understand how the average person operates because this is becoming an obstacle to your own perception of reality.

Are we both playing POE 2? Because my POE 2 client is open right now and I cannot see any Paladins? Are you like..... okay? You're not lost right?

Kindly disregard my post if you are still stuck in your alternate reality.

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iMirageX#4580 wrote:

The proof the you wanted isn't something an individual can give you but if you think and observe carefully, there are already builds out there that deletes pinnacle bosses in less than 5 seconds and they "put" a bit of defense/ehp to actually not die in one flick. Now if you cannot see what your "removal" of penalty is going to entail if builds like this exist now, then you may have a problem. In the first place, asking someone to provide proof when you yourself don't provide one is kinda rude? Where is your proof that build diversity will broaden when exp penalty is removed? Aren't you thinking backwards? Why would you build defense if dying doesn't have consequences much less have 6 portals? You're gonna say "Oh, no I will still build defense even if exp loss was removed" like, who are you lying too?

I know that there are a lot of games that do not have penalty when dying, those games are made that way, POE is made this way, what's there to compare?

First you claimed something and I called it untrue until provided proof. I stated that I would claim the opposite. You made the initial claim so it's on you to provide proof of that.

I just told you exactly in my post how an individual like yourself can do that, it's called poe.ninja and the answer is I am right, softcore has more build diversity than hardcore, thus increasing penalties for death does not lead to bigger build diversity. It's in fact the opposite.

What you meant with your claim was to say that without absolutely any penalty on death there wouldn't be any point in investing into any defense thus making a lot of stats obsolete. That is something extremely obvious as well as the fact that I don't really know any game that has no penalty for failure. Remember before you post that time is a very scarce resource in human lives that doesn't replenish nor can be bought.

If I am lying than tell me why I invested around 100 divines on my lvl 100 character to reach 120k eva and 10k es in the current league. I could have spent those resources to reach 300-450mln dps (thats around the ceiling) instead of my current 130mln dps. I am a boss killer trapper. I will repeat: i spent them after I reached lvl 100 and I am very glad I did.

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BK2710#6123 wrote:

Why can't people understand the purpose of XP loss? It didn't just pop into existence randomly.

Ok, let me tell you the real reason for XP loss on death, since you correctly point out people don't understand where it comes from.

It was created in Text Based MUD's like MUME (Multi-Users-in-Middle-Earth) to keep some sort of progression going. Players would play the same characters for years, and reaching max level wasn't that hard.

Losing XP (and your items) on death kept the game interesting. Mobs simply weren't a real challenge, and gave an edge to the PvP. People would bounce up and down the upper tier of levels.

When Graphical MUD's like Ultima Online and Everquest came, they kept the mechanic. It was particularly bad in Everquest, where parties simply wouldn't let you join if you didn't have optimal gear and everyone didn't have the max buffs, as the cost of dying was simply too great to allow even a slim possibility.

The next generation of MMO's kept the idea out of habit, but have consistently made the death penalty less severe over time, even removing it completely.

It serves no purpose in a game like Path of Exile 2. The challenge of the mobs is enough to gate progress. It's not a subscription or persistent game, so there's no need to artificially inflate the play time.

And - and this is the really important part - making a game punishing means you MUST make it less challenging. The hardest and most challenging video games have no death penalty. Players can fail a level a hundred times in a row and keep playing because they can get right back in and try again. Once you add in a punishment, their frustration rises exponentially.

You punish people to get them to change their behavior. In this case, it gets players to avoid challenges until they are geared and leveled enough that it is no longer challenging. That is piss poor game design.

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Anduvriel#4240 wrote:

First you claimed something and I called it untrue until provided proof. I stated that I would claim the opposite. You made the initial claim so it's on you to provide proof of that.

I just told you exactly in my post how an individual like yourself can do that, it's called poe.ninja and the answer is I am right, softcore has more build diversity than hardcore, thus increasing penalties for death does not lead to bigger build diversity. It's in fact the opposite.

What you meant with your claim was to say that without absolutely any penalty on death there wouldn't be any point in investing into any defense thus making a lot of stats obsolete. That is something extremely obvious as well as the fact that I don't really know any game that has no penalty for failure. Remember before you post that time is a very scarce resource in human lives that doesn't replenish nor can be bought.

First of all, if you decide to play HC, you are funneled into making your build tankier since death is the end of your character's journey in HC, 2nd you have already answered your own question and thus proof. We have the exp loss penalty and you already admitted that build diversity is big. For context, your reasoning actually missed the topic being discussed since HC's death and exp penalty loss are 2 very different kinds of rules and this is were your "optional" logic comes in.

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Anduvriel#4240 wrote:

If I am lying than tell me why I invested around 100 divines on my lvl 100 character to reach 120k eva and 10k es in the current league. I could have spent those resources to reach 300-450mln dps (thats around the ceiling) instead of my current 130mln dps. I am a boss killer trapper. I will repeat: i spent them after I reached lvl 100 and I am very glad I did.

Where is your proof that you just did it at 100? Is this "trust me bro" situation?

P.S. your evasion with everything up is 89,639 and not sure how many traps your throwing but lets leave your "130m" dps as "trust me bro"

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Kumawaka#4636 wrote:

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Bacon_Overlord#1834 wrote:

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Kumawaka#4636 wrote:

I am pretty sure GGG has a history of not giving a fuck about a vast majority of players, and thats why PoE is good, and why PoE 2 will be good. Xp penalty on death existed for years, and as someone who dies 50-100 times per league, it doesn't bother me at all. Fear not, everyone who doesn't like -10% xp on death (that must exist), one portal maps that punish bad builds or oneshots (that should exist kinda) can leave, and the game will be fine too. The long runback to bosses I believe they will fix when they introduce more checkpoints and teleport to checkpoints, so that will hopefully be gone.

You were right up until "and that's why"

No, that's why it's going to be a mid-game just like POE 1 was. The only reason that many people played POE 1 was the build diversity, the fact that it was F2P and a HUGE chunk of the people playing were farming bots.

We don't have build diversity in POE 2 yet. One can hope we will, but if they keep copy/pasting stuff from POE 1 we will have the EXACT SAME STUFF as we did in POE 1.

Not great.

Plus their lack of understanding that literally no other newer games have non-recoverable exp penalties and punishing mechanics for no other reason than "just because" is why this will be the same and end up with more bots than players for the first 3 weeks of every season.

Why can't people understand the purpose of XP loss? It didn't just pop into existence randomly. It has a purpose, the purpose is to gatekeep bad builds from level 100. Level 90 is enough for a build, builds aren't planned around level 100.
BTW PoE1's playerbase kept steadily growing for 10 years, calling the game "mid" is a lil bit delusional, mid games die in a couple. PoE 2 right now is a husk, 12/36 ascendancies, ~50% of gems, ~50% of weapons, raw skill tree. On release there will be build diversity.
Also I don't know what cosmic vision told you there is a bot problem, GGG uses server-side statistics to detect farming bots, if i remember correctly those bots then get no loot for killing mobs. There are farming bots in every game with RMT, its inescapable, but PoE definitely has less problems with bots than games like, lord have mercy, World of Warcraft.
Trading bots are fine, nobody cares about them. If they ever improve trading of non-currency items those bots will be gone too, but will they improve it? Time will tell.

Why do people assume that nobody understands a purpose of XP loss? The XP loss in poe 1 was not a big problem. I have gotten level 100 without issues.

I suggest that all advocated for EXP loss in this game, go and level to 100 before talking. As of today after 600+ hours of gametime there is exactly one person who is level 100 in the entire world, and the game had a playerbase that is 10 times higher than poe 1 ever had.

You guys are detached from reality answering your own questions in your own head.

It is either slow progression (exp scaling) or exp loss. Combining both creates an impassable slog. It is not about having good or bad build, there is literally no build that will hit level 100 in this game as it is now.

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Kumawaka#4636 wrote:

Why do people assume that nobody understands a purpose of XP loss? The XP loss in poe 1 was not a big problem. I have gotten level 100 without issues.

I suggest that all advocated for EXP loss in this game, go and level to 100 before talking. As of today after 600+ hours of gametime there is exactly one person who is level 100 in the entire world, and the game had a playerbase that is 10 times higher than poe 1 ever had.

You guys are detached from reality answering your own questions in your own head.

It is either slow progression (exp scaling) or exp loss. Combining both creates an impassable slog. It is not about having good or bad build, there is literally no build that will hit level 100 in this game as it is now.

maybe youre simply not supposed to hit lvl 100, and you dont need to be lvl 100 for anything. deal with it. this whole crying about not hitting lvl 100 is hillarious. who cares?

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Pl4t1numX#4325 wrote:

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Kumawaka#4636 wrote:

maybe youre simply not supposed to hit lvl 100, and you dont need to be lvl 100 for anything. deal with it. this whole crying about not hitting lvl 100 is hillarious. who cares?

The XP loss is bad game design at every level. It is designed to teach people to avoid challenging content.