GGG, gotta change that new 'one attempt per waystone'.

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Ardziv#1837 wrote:

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

And again, bosses are optional. A player can chose to do a boss map or to avoid it. It is up to the player.

So what's the strategy? When you see a boss node you put a waypoint tier 1 in it, go, kill yourself, and then proceed with an empty zone? You really think that's what they are going for? The game absolutely wants you to take on challenges and practice, but the problem is you don't get to practice if you only have 1 try. It's not about rewards (at least not from my perspective).

They will definitely change something about the way this works, the question is how long will it take for them to find the solution.

Forcing people to do low tier maps until they stat check all content and are able to faceroll and 1 tap the screen (like all streamers are doing now) is not a good game design. End game is already close to and in some cases, faster than PoE1.

I simply don't get your argument about boss maps. Why would you put in a tier 1 waypoint? Why even run such a map? There is absolutely no reason to do so.

If you decide to run a boss map, then this is your decision. You do not have to.

So if you make the decision to do this, why ask GGG to change their game to fit your decision and wanted outcome?

I am sure you are correct and there will be changes.

To me the calculation of people is just wrong.
Game mechanic + player decision = outcome, where Game mechanic is a constant, player decision a variable and outcome is calculated. That is the way it should be.
But people try to change it to player decision and outcome are both constants and the game mechanics are a variable changing to anything needed to get their wanted outcome.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

Of course there's a penalty - you lost the time it took you to attempt the boss.

Leveling to 100 is still an accomplishment - you have to kill the bosses and level up to get there.

The 5-10 minutes you lose for a failed attempt is no real penalty. If you keep dying over and over so that this number reaches very high levels ... well then maybe you should reconsider the difficulty you choose or try to improve your character further.

There is no need to kill bosses to reach level 100. You can reach level 100 without killing a single boss in maps.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

You should want to challenge yourself against the bosses, not avoid them. If your design philosophy is Players shouldn't attempt bosses until they're overleveled and overgeared - your vision is the problem.

You can easily do this. If you want to keep your XP you can simply do other, easier maps until you level up. Once you leveled up you can run 5, 10 or however many maps you want, with bosses or other challenges you want to attempt.

That is my main point. The player has all the freedom to decide what they want to do. Everything lies in their decision making.

This issue is they have pulled their mapping system over from PoE1 (requiring maps/waystones to run), but combined it with the PoE2 system of everything reseting.

Some argued that you could exploit mechanics by dying on purpose, while others have argued that you only get 1 shot in Last Epoch, but you don't require an item to do a 'map' in Last Epoch, you have traversal skills, and the maps are significantly smaller with much quicker to complete (sign posted sooner) objectives.

What can be done in 1-3 minutes in Last Epoch is the equivalent to 8-15 minutes in PoE2 with the back tracking and 'kill all rares' goal.

If I lose 3 minutes of time and a reward, I'm annoyed (if its super valuable), but not stressed. If I lose 15 minutes and other resources, especially to something that seems cheap (boy is ritual ridiculously dangerous), then I am frustrated. If this happens multiple times, I'm demoralized and logging out.

So to recap, if you mess up, get unlucky, or lag out, you lose:
- a decent chunk of time
- time spent getting experience that you now need to make up (fixing the deficit)
- resources put into the way stone
- further rewards from map modifiers

This is a list a punishments, and now you are stuck with having to clear a 'boring' maps with no events, spending more time, which you could potentially get unlucky / mess up again, losing more time, resources, and experience.

The time investment and wastage is the biggest issue.
I'm not against losing XP, but losing everything is super rough and not a good experience for people, only mitigated by 'not dying' and thus not experiencing it.

Old mate Avaricta is talking about not doing 'challenging' content, but the campaign is literally designed to be challenging throughout (less so through cruel to be fair, hopefully fixed with act 4-6), so the 'vision' for the game is completely flipped for end game (something mentioned by many people). You aren't really working your way up to overcoming a challenge if you aren't doing the content, and even then, how do you anticipate this stupid purple flower's chaos ball will one shot you if you rarely encounter it? (this was a learning experience for me that breaks the flow of everything else).

If all things are equal, your argument is fair enough, but it is not just player skill or build alone that dictates these things. There is a crazy amount of RNG that can't really be mitigated, such as gear, random modifiers on maps, or the modifiers on the rares, and since you need to 'kill all rares' to complete a map, if you are unlucky or encounter a build crushing combination, the map is essentially bricked at that stage.

With that said, it is all Early Access, and one would hope if they could work out some of the rough edges elsewhere, then the overall experience will smooth out. Maybe is everything else was less RNG / up to par, 1 life per map would be fine, but currently, you can come out of the campaign feeling like a god and get slapped around in earlier maps due to stupid little things.

My point is, that 90% of what players are complaining about is their own decision.

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jagerl#0457 wrote:

If I lose 3 minutes of time and a reward, I'm annoyed (if its super valuable), but not stressed. If I lose 15 minutes and other resources, especially to something that seems cheap (boy is ritual ridiculously dangerous), then I am frustrated. If this happens multiple times, I'm demoralized and logging out.

Like this. If you know that ritual in its current state is ridiculously dangerous why do it on a difficult waystone? You see the Ritual icon on the map. You know it is there. If you want to do it, you can simply use a lower tier waystone or one with easier mods. Or you can chose to ignore it. Or you can risk attempting it on a difficult waystone. Or save it for later and just run other maps in the meantime.

It is the players decision how hard they make the content.

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jagerl#0457 wrote:

If all things are equal, your argument is fair enough, but it is not just player skill or build alone that dictates these things. There is a crazy amount of RNG that can't really be mitigated, such as gear, random modifiers on maps, or the modifiers on the rares, and since you need to 'kill all rares' to complete a map, if you are unlucky or encounter a build crushing combination, the map is essentially bricked at that stage.

I am not quite sure what you mean here. Map modifiers are not rng. You know them before you enter the map. You literally craft them onto the waystone.
Gear is also not rng. You know what items your character has equipped before you enter a map. You can trade for items or if you play SSF or can't afford items you can adjust your content to your gear. My point is you know what items you have, it is not rng.

The only thing rng in a map are the monster types and the modifiers on magic/rare monsters. For everything else you have the information before entering a map. And you also can adjust all these parameters.

I've said this before, but imo the way the game is now, it's gonna go the way of Wild Star. It caters to the elite that talks the loudest on reddit, while not thinking of all the other players that might want to play, but aren't there for a souls-like game and a game that heavily favors those who can spend 10 hours a day playing.
But thats (very likely) a loud minority and unless things are toned down a bit, to not just be for the "ruthless segment" of POE1, then it's going to crash and crash hard. There are other ARPG's on the market and you can bet your ass, they are going to do their damn hardest to cater to those people who don't want to just play ruthless with new graphics.
Make a ruthless mode for the ruthless segment, hell make an uber ruthless if they want to pay for it, but don't forget the silent majority is (very likely) casuals, that play maybe 1 or 2 hours, after work and a couple more in the weekends and don't feel like losing all progression from one mistake.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

My point is, that 90% of what players are complaining about is their own decision.

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jagerl#0457 wrote:

If I lose 3 minutes of time and a reward, I'm annoyed (if its super valuable), but not stressed. If I lose 15 minutes and other resources, especially to something that seems cheap (boy is ritual ridiculously dangerous), then I am frustrated. If this happens multiple times, I'm demoralized and logging out.

Like this. If you know that ritual in its current state is ridiculously dangerous why do it on a difficult waystone? You see the Ritual icon on the map. You know it is there. If you want to do it, you can simply use a lower tier waystone or one with easier mods. Or you can chose to ignore it. Or you can risk attempting it on a difficult waystone. Or save it for later and just run other maps in the meantime.

It is the players decision how hard they make the content.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but are you arguing that players should not do the content that GGG have put into the game? I mean, GGG are basically priding themselves on boss design, and the argument is not to do it?
If you are ignoring the other mechanics, what are you doing? Just going through large maps and killing rares? Subjective maybe, but how boring.

This also ignores that if you skip these overtuned mechanics, you can still get gibbed hard without realising. Spent 10 minutes in the map? If something goes wrong (and it doesn't necessarily have to be poor play / a bad decision), you can be dead in 3 seconds, and that 10 minutes of your life is gone. "Oh look, I'm doing mechanics, dodging circles and OH MY GOD WHERE DID THOSE QUADRILLA COME FROM THAT ONE SHOT ME... oh, obscured by the tree I didn't see because I was dodging AoE and trying not to get surrounded"

This is my biggest issue, that crazy stuff happens, and you don't have a chance to recover. Again, this should be less of an issue when things are tuned (and of course, if you out gear the content), but having more portals (not necessarily 6) mitigates things like this a little. Perhaps an year from now this will be a non issue?
That said, if players group, you can't res, so someone sits there dead while you finish the map? Boy, what fun that guy must be having while sitting on the death screen for the next 5-10 minutes!

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

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jagerl#0457 wrote:

If all things are equal, your argument is fair enough, but it is not just player skill or build alone that dictates these things. There is a crazy amount of RNG that can't really be mitigated, such as gear, random modifiers on maps, or the modifiers on the rares, and since you need to 'kill all rares' to complete a map, if you are unlucky or encounter a build crushing combination, the map is essentially bricked at that stage.

I am not quite sure what you mean here. Map modifiers are not rng. You know them before you enter the map. You literally craft them onto the waystone.
Gear is also not rng. You know what items your character has equipped before you enter a map. You can trade for items or if you play SSF or can't afford items you can adjust your content to your gear. My point is you know what items you have, it is not rng.

The only thing rng in a map are the monster types and the modifiers on magic/rare monsters. For everything else you have the information before entering a map. And you also can adjust all these parameters.

Knowing what you have does not mean it is not RNG, it just means you should know what you are working with, which you point out. So yes, rolling mods, whether on way stones or gear is very much RNG, that you can arguably invest more time/resources in to hopefully get something you can work with.

If you turn up to work tomorrow and you have a bunch of clients to service, have to work overtime, and are going to have a stressful day, is there any significant difference if you knew this ahead of time, or if it was dropped on you that morning?
Probably not the best metaphor, but it is somewhat applicable. Just because you know something doesn't mean the outcome will be any less / more pleasant due to that knowledge.

Just to touch on trading, that is fine, but those ahead of the curve come out richer / stay ahead (one guy literally said don't change things so I can continue to profit off other players / keep boss items valuable). These same players are building up more currency, as are bots, so items are only getting more expensive, so items get further out of reach for those coming in later. This also ignores all the other issues that come with it.

Again, this is early access, and there could be things in the pipeline that make the 1 portal less of an issue, but right now, it is horrible, and no doubt why they pivoted to developing end game instead of Act 4-6, so feedback could be implemented and it could cook, because right now, it is very undercooked.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

My point is, that 90% of what players are complaining about is their own decision.

It is the players decision how hard they make the content.

Of course it's the player's decision. You know what else is the player's decision? Whether or not to keep playing the game.

The design is bad. It doesn't matter that it's the same for everyone or that the player knows what it is. It punishes players for trying challenging content. For players who want to play challenging content, that means they are punished for playing the game.

Telling people to grind on easy content so that you can do the content you like - or worse, to regain all the XP you lost playing the game, is a sure way to lose people. It's simply not respecting their time.

The game should be challenging, not punishing. Overcoming the challenge is what gives a sense of accomplishment (and no one should be making a video game their mission in life). Not grinding away for hours on tedious busy work doing maps you can't lose (that would take away all accomplishment from level 100)

Middle ground: Give us 3 lives shared across party, allow us to revive teammate / revive ourself (consuming a life). Do not respawn the monsters else this will get exploited on juicy maps, but do restart the boss encounter from full health if the death happens at boss.

im 93 titan...played all day,died all day,lost all citadels..gg,i go to sleep frustrated by dooing nothing today

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Hard disagree!

People seem to forget that every player chooses the difficulty themself. There is no need to change anything from GGG side. The players may need to change the way they roll their waystones or the tier they are opening.

If a player dies regularly, simply go to a lower tier of waystones, roll mods on them that are more suitable for your build or simply build a tankier character.

If a player opens a high tier maps with bad modifiers, plays a class cannon build and dies often ... well what did you expect?

You chose the difficulty!

Edit:
Why demand changes from someone else to fix your bad decisions?

Terrible take. I hope the IRS audits you. And then they find you made a mistake on your taxes 10 years ago then fine you and add 10 years of penalties. Then when you cant pay that they seize all your assets. And when you go before the judge to complain about how unfair it is, he slams the gavel down stating to bad you had your 1 chance before ordering the sheriff to auction off your assets to the lowest bidder.

No,

I dont want POE 2 to become glass canon zerg fest meta.

If you cant handle the difficulty, farm better gear or do lower tiers.