I feel cheated

"

RitualMurder wrote:

i misunderstand nothing
all a lot of people seem to care about now is how many div/hr they are making instead of enjoying the game and playing it

dude found one of the rarest items in the game and isnt happy because he cant immediately sell it for div do you not see how sad that is???
the item isnt special to them only the div are
thats really really sad.... and speaks to a core issue developed in this community over the past few years
makes me sad

I still have to say I think you did --- you're looking at the words but not seeing the context.

When something was so rare and so valuable for most of the time you had been playing, but by the time you finally found it, it had stopped being this mythical out of reach treasure and had lost so much value it was actually affordable.

As for an example, it be like wanting a lambo for years and finally managing to acquire one, but for some strange reason they now were only as valuable as your typical economy car like a civic. It's not that it wasn't still an item of value, but so much value was lost that it doesn't feel as "rewarding" as it should.

It's not about selling it, its that its perceived worth had effectively disappeared so instead of it feeling awesome its a let down. It's not different from having found one of the Voices Cluster jewel with the fewest nodes which are still nice technically speaking but basically became near worthless when compared to what they were valued at before the herald stacker nerf.

"

SeCKSEgai wrote:

one of the Voices Cluster jewel with the fewest nodes which are still nice technically speaking but basically became near worthless when compared to what they were valued at before the herald stacker nerf.

Poor choice of example.....1-passive voices cluster is worth far more now than it was even back in those days. Right now its worth over a mirror, last league it was worth 3+ mirrors.

To claim that is "near worthless" belies any point you are trying to make.

Your lambo example is also only half of the story. Because what it fails to consider is that the item itself (the lambo / the HH) is just as rare as it always was in the grand scheme of the game.

If a player never once looked at the price or value of a HH in the CURRENT market, then dropped a HH, and then checked the price.....what meaning does that have on the actual drop? The item is still uber rare, and the item is still uber powerful.

To put it in the context of your analogy: the person buying the lambo has no idea it costs the same as a civic, they instead believe it to still be the exorbitant price it used to be. Furthermore, it remains as rare of a car to just stumble across. Additionally, it still holds all the power, luxury, and pseudo-"status" that owning a lambo comes with.

To only see the current "cost" as the entire value of the item is to ignore all of that other stuff. Which is exactly the mindset issue being argued here. There is so much more that goes into the personal value of an item. And you guys are trying to reduce all that to a single number, which just isn't totally rational.


Here's an analogy: say you REALLY wanted a rare coin. Not because its valuable money-wise, but because it holds value to YOU in its rarity and whatever else importance you assigned to it (maybe you are an avid collector and its the last one you are waiting for). You were never looking to buy it, you just wanted to find that rare coin. For years, you are searching for that coin, checking all your change on the off chance you might get it. Finally, after years of searching, you get the coin. Then, after receiving it, you look online and see that you could have bought the coin for some low affordable price. Does that price hold any weight on the personal importance of finding that coin, or completing your collection, or whatever else reasoning there was for you to find that coin? Of course it doesn't.

At the very least, it SHOULDN'T.

"

mefistozxz wrote:

When you go to the grocery store to pick up a box of cereal or some deli meats, you don't "care" about the company selling the cereal or the store itself. No.....you just want the cereal box.



Furthermore, as the OP did, when you reduce a great find or a great moment to "How many divs is this worth?", you are lessening the whole gaming experience to a market simulator, cheapening the entire gaming experience to its bare minimum. It's like if someone just stares at their Exilence Next valuation watching it tick higher or lower, there's no game involved anymore.

Let's put it in perspective --- if I want a sub sandwich for whatever reason, I am willing to pay more from Jersey Mike's as opposed to Subway. I have a negative mental association with Subway, and its not from Jared but from videos posted to the interweb and stories told by former employees with me personally knowing at least one or two. I will pay more and still get more satisfaction from the Jersey Mike's sub.

Now with grocers its a bit broader, and its a matter of personal experiences or reviews read or maybe the owner's political views. But it wasn't that long ago people were boycotting a beer over an ad campaign and people "cared" whether they should have or not, they did.


Now as far as Poe stuff goes --- we value items based mostly on economy and some on nostalgia or something.



This shield has no real market value, and only sentimental value to me --- For a while I was feeling bad I had accidentally lost it somewhere despite never planning to use it and taking up space for something worth keeping.

"

mefistozxz wrote:

"

SeCKSEgai wrote:

one of the Voices Cluster jewel with the fewest nodes which are still nice technically speaking but basically became near worthless when compared to what they were valued at before the herald stacker nerf.

Poor choice of example.....1-passive voices cluster is worth far more now than it was even back in those days. Right now its worth over a mirror, last league it was worth 3+ mirrors.

To claim that is "near worthless" belies any point you are trying to make.

That's fair, I no longer follow the economy and haven't really focused on a league since probably before sentinel. But I do recall them losing value at least for a time once the herald stacker was gone.

"

SeCKSEgai wrote:

Now as far as Poe stuff goes --- we value items based mostly on economy and some on nostalgia or something.

No.....this is not correct. This is exactly the problem being discussed. While some might value items in this way, it is most certainly not a "we" thing. I value items in their usefulness to my build.

A 10 divine market HH is the same value as a 100 divine market HH, if I drop a HH and want to use that HH. Because the market value is only meaningful if I intend to sell it. Which I do not intend to do.

When it comes to raw drops, market value plays ZERO role unless you are selling the item in question. And this is the poor mentality: "what can I sell this item for", rather than "what can I use this item for".

And remember, if the drop in question is exciting because you don't have it yet....presumably you haven't thought to buy it and therefore don't even KNOW what the cost of that item might be. Therefore, that "value" is a complete unknown and not even a part of the conversation or equation at the time of the drop.

"

SeCKSEgai wrote:

"

RitualMurder wrote:

i misunderstand nothing
all a lot of people seem to care about now is how many div/hr they are making instead of enjoying the game and playing it

dude found one of the rarest items in the game and isnt happy because he cant immediately sell it for div do you not see how sad that is???
the item isnt special to them only the div are
thats really really sad.... and speaks to a core issue developed in this community over the past few years
makes me sad

I still have to say I think you did --- you're looking at the words but not seeing the context.

When something was so rare and so valuable for most of the time you had been playing, but by the time you finally found it, it had stopped being this mythical out of reach treasure and had lost so much value it was actually affordable.

As for an example, it be like wanting a lambo for years and finally managing to acquire one, but for some strange reason they now were only as valuable as your typical economy car like a civic. It's not that it wasn't still an item of value, but so much value was lost that it doesn't feel as "rewarding" as it should.

It's not about selling it, its that its perceived worth had effectively disappeared so instead of it feeling awesome its a let down. It's not different from having found one of the Voices Cluster jewel with the fewest nodes which are still nice technically speaking but basically became near worthless when compared to what they were valued at before the herald stacker nerf.

You are only proving my point here. Your value of the item/car or whatever seems to only be based on its ability to be acquired by others or high price. You don't actually care bout the item itself but the clout or prestige that comes with owning/having said object.
Just because a Lambo might now sell for $30k instead of $300k just means that you only care about the prestige associated with that instead of the actual object in question regardless of what that is.

And that, to me, is sad and a big issue this the community.

"

mefistozxz wrote:

When you go to the grocery store to pick up a box of cereal or some deli meats, you don't "care" about the company selling the cereal or the store itself. No.....you just want the cereal box.

you care about the box of cereal, and you value it. your framing of caring vs value is your personal take and i dont rly subscribe to it or apply it to my own statement the way you do.

"

mefistozxz wrote:

Furthermore, as the OP did, when you reduce a great find or a great moment to "How many divs is this worth?", you are lessening the whole gaming experience to a market simulator, cheapening the entire gaming experience to its bare minimum. It's like if someone just stares at their Exilence Next valuation watching it tick higher or lower, there's no game involved anymore.

thats your framing, and i dont mean this as a dig but i feel like your not seeing things from other peoples perspectives.


why is it lessening or cheapening? why is it reducing? thats how you look at it, thats not the only way a person might look at it and that doesnt make them wrong.

maybe its expanding. you found this item and then instead of it only being a great item for you it now expands into this item that the community thinks is really valuable, that other people are willing to trade things you find really valuable to obtain, maybe you find those things more valuable than the item you found. people are jealous, your friends are jealous, you get to brag to them and laugh when they give you shit about their luck vs yours. we could go on. this all adds to the sense of value and importance in the drop, its not lessening or cheapening, its enlarging and enriching the experience of the item find.

maybe u dont give a fk about a headhunter, maybe you dont think its an amazing item, but because of these other factors the item drop becomes exciting. i dont give a shit about HH, ive usually got multiple mirrors and 4 figure divines yet ive never owned a HH, ever, i just dont care about that item at all as an item. but if i found one in a league and it was worth 60 divines i would be hyped, because of 60 divines and the item that i could then obtain with that currency instead.


this is the way the game has been designed. if you listen to the devs talk in interviews consistently over the last 11 years they have spoken about percieved value in items, about how being able to trade an item potentially adds value to it, adds to the sense of importance, expands the amount of things you can find that have a sense of value, that you care about finding, and increases that value. thats why you can import over from SSF, you have gone into a game mode where finding a mirror might not mean anything to you personally because you have nothing that mirroring really matters for... but through the community the mirror has become a holy grail and you could, if you wanted, migrate it to trade and sell it to people who it would really really matter to, they would love it. youre not going to, but that fact you know they exist and you could gives the item value.


maybe not to you personally, maybe you dont feel these things, but many many people do feel these things, its not a bad thing, its a good thing for them and the game is designed around these concepts intentionally.

"

mefistozxz wrote:

Completely disagree. Even in trade, peopel don't give a damn how, why, or when you got your HH. They only care that THEY want the HH. There is nothing "social" about it beyond one person wanting the same item you have. It is not a "personal" or "social" interaction, it is one of pure necessity and selfishness.

i talk to many randoms on these forums, in general chats in the game and with people ive traded with over the years. they have shown me their items, linked their drops, talked about stuff thats happened in their games and i have cared. we have had meaningful social interactions.

you might not give a damn about anyone and only think in terms of pure neccesity and selfishness but that is not how everyone thinks and feels. if thats a you thing then thats you, but its not an everyone thing. not everyone lives in the rand/nash empathy free zone, people really do care about other people, what happens to them, what they think, what they experience.


even you right now are using the fleeting moments of your existence to talk to the rest of us about what we think.



even through the lense of selfishness, people care about the item other people have, they value it, and that is a shared human experience. even if we just look at the situation the way you have described it what i said still holds up, and that is far from the only way to look and feel about the game.

"

mefistozxz wrote:

"

SeCKSEgai wrote:

Now as far as Poe stuff goes --- we value items based mostly on economy and some on nostalgia or something.

No.....this is not correct. This is exactly the problem being discussed. While some might value items in this way, it is most certainly not a "we" thing. I value items in their usefulness to my build.

A 10 divine market HH is the same value as a 100 divine market HH, if I drop a HH and want to use that HH. Because the market value is only meaningful if I intend to sell it. Which I do not intend to do.

When it comes to raw drops, market value plays ZERO role unless you are selling the item in question. And this is the poor mentality: "what can I sell this item for", rather than "what can I use this item for".

And remember, if the drop in question is exciting because you don't have it yet....presumably you haven't thought to buy it and therefore don't even KNOW what the cost of that item might be. Therefore, that "value" is a complete unknown and not even a part of the conversation or equation at the time of the drop.

I think the problem here is you're not recognizing a key factor --- I can totally relate to OP as I myself have an HH that took me forever to get and wouldn't sell --- there's no intent to sell. Yet when I got mine, they were still in the 50-60 exalt range, so it wasn't a matter of market value. What's often so underwhelming is when you don't have one its represented like this godly item but by the time you finally get one it's more just a oh that's kinda neat mechanic. And, with OP's case, seeing how much of their long term value was lost is just insult to injury.

Again, there isn't even an intent to sell --- but you do tend to measure value in how much other people value it. With an item like an HH, your place in the market is going to impact how you perceive it. If you could afford it at its most expensive, you're probably not going to relate to the perspective of someone who could not.

Lastly, mageblood is effectively been the new HH for me. It's market value to me exceeds its usefulness, and it offers more utility than HH all the same. Given the effort I put in while I was active hunting down cards and chancing, I know I'll be more disappointed than not as the difficulty to obtain said items doesn't really match the utility of said item.

In a sense it's a bit ironic as you're wanting the joy of finding it yourself, but find it disappointing knowing what you did to get it. On the bright side, it can at least make some items feel "more" valuable -- I have two legacy starforges I'd never sell, which I value more than market primarily because I found them and they won't have those stats again at least for a very long time.

A player's value of an item is rarely as simple as one line (market value). But it shouldn't be odd that market value affects how one perceives an item in a game where you're endlessly hunting for loot.

And for a more direct comparison -- I can hold it over snorkle that I found an HH --- but he/she can hold over me that they've made more than I've ever had. Yet neither really matters - aside from the fact that two different players with vastly different experiences are grasping the same concept. (Tho to be fair snorkle having more wealth in storage I'd value more than finding one silly HH ;)

"

RitualMurder wrote:

all a lot of people seem to care about now is how many div/hr they are making instead of enjoying the game and playing it

ive not followed this conversation between yourself and SeCK too intently so im not commenting on the wider contexts and stuff here.

but just to mention i do understand this point of view too and i somewhat agree, i have that feeling too at times and despite my last post i do appreciate sometimes this is a thing. people can get caught up with that as a sole measuring stick of their time spent with the game and that mindset is certainly not for me.

there is a whole game here and actually i really enjoy ssf, i will be playing poe2 without any trade outside of sharing items with my close friends i group with. for me personally the playing of the game and enjoying the things i find for my own use of them is something i really value.


i do get this statement as a soundbite ritual and for my personal tastes i agree.



but i do think thats also not the only way caring about an items market value has to play out and there is a world where people can care a lot about the market value within a very broad and balanced game appreciation. i care about market value and yet more often than not i go into a league playing self/group found.

Yeah I guess it does need rephrasing --- while there are players "too focused" on item market value and building wealth, just because OP mentioned market value does not mean its the same. I wouldn't waste so much time identifying so many rares if I was focused on wealth, but the satisfaction to me comes from finding something myself. But at the same time it makes it hard to play for long because it emphasizes a sense of an unrewarding experience. I often log in, run one or two maps and lose interest from all the disappointment. It's not that you're expecting awesome often, but by the time you find "awesome" it will have required so much effort it wasn't worth it to bother.