Iron Reflexes or not?

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Lyutsifer665 wrote:

@OP i had another look and it seems like you are missing the ghost reaver keystone. that is crucial for your build since you rely on leech a lot. you use the shavronne ring so you cant regen or recharge ES anyway so you might as well take the keystone

switching out one step ahead to spellbreaker in the ascendancy and taking inveterate on the tree and the lucky spell suppress in mastery would also help a lot. note that you dont need to remove iron reflexes or the block nodes for this. all the top builds on poenija that use aegis take those nodes. it would only make sense not to path down that way if you stopped using aegis and switched to a pure ES shield.

You're picking and choosing what is shown to you on ninja then.

For the players you are referencing they have 40-70k armour in some cases as they are actually invested in scaling for that node. The OP has barely 30

Also as Pashid has pointed out, ... nearly every single one of them is suppress cap, a much better defense for the OP to target.

Investment may be preventing him but also taking phys taken as chaos on their helmet would be an improvement.


Largest change is suppress, that needs to happen as Pashid pointed out.

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Mashgesture wrote:

Largest change is suppress, that needs to happen as Pashid pointed out.

maybe but OP didnt ask for general help. he asked one very specific question and the answer to that is pretty obvious. literally every aegis build tries to cap their block and get as much armor as they can. its not even a question

anyway welcome to the gameplay help forum, i dont think i have ever seen you here before. :)

edit- heres the ninja screenshot. out of the 1165 characters i can guarantee you that at least 90% of them are pathing down and taking all the block nodes along with iron reflexes. but i guess they must be all wrong.

https://i.imgur.com/869zxfq.jpeg

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Lyutsifer665 wrote:

heres the ninja screenshot. out of the 1165 characters i can guarantee you that at least 90% of them are pathing down and taking all the block nodes along with iron reflexes. but i guess they must be all wrong.

And if you do some deeper investigation you would realize that 64% make use of a mageblood to boost their evasion rating heavily with flasks.
The remaining 46% of non mageblood builds are invested into armor or evasion over other ways like auras or different gear pieces to support the use of the keystone and about 210 of those didn't even reached level 95 or above with their build which is already a pretty strong indicator that they did hit a wall at some point.

In the end the keystone is a decent alternative to a pure ES build and ES recharge rate, however it's not a solid option for budget builds as the gain is non existent for the points you have to waste to go down to the keystone.
These builds also profit from ES in higher damage returns so it would be really stupid to not only ditch better defensive mechanics on budget but also ditch more damage on top.

Blindly copy and pasting a build with the lack of fundamental knowledge can lead to bad outcomes, cause people use this keystone on high end budget for reasons and not as budget bandage solution. And players who've been around for a few leagues should know that blindly copy pasting poeninja builds is bad as it can lead to a lot of problems if you don't compensate things that you gain in high investment over other ways.

there is simply no downside to taking iron reflexes. its not like people path down there just for that one node alone. and for a one point investment its still better than the little evasion the build would have without it. this build doesnt make use of evasion at all.

*sigh i guess some people are just too stubborn to admit when they are wrong. @OP feel free to PM me if you need any help and we can continue this in private. or just look at what people who actually play this build are doing on poenija.

Yea you gotta take out the mageblood, thats one of the most simple parameters you should do when looking at ninja.

You dont take a snapshot of OSin VF snaking players and try to build what they do...


Back to the topic:

But again, the reason there is not much effect with that node OP is because you are about 20-30k evasion behind the people who take that node. You only gain about 3k phys max hit, where as other players are gaining 14-16k

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Lyutsifer665 wrote:

there is simply no downside to taking iron reflexes.

There is the downside of pathing all the way down there on budget build to gain little to no returns with the setup of more advanced builds.
Not pathing down and picking up different defensive layers and approaches in budget not only gives you more damage as you get easier access to more ES to compensate budget items but you also gain better defensive layers as you do waste a lot of points to simply path all the way down for no real returns.
Block alone isn't even the reason why people go down there as you get much better options without wasting a hell lot of points.
Aegis is just one of the few high end options as it has a strong synergy with all the other added defensive layers like huge armor, 90 all res and what not.

The low investment amount of armor just isn't worth it to path down there and it's just a bait trap for inexperienced players to copy a high budget build on low budget.
Playing with aegis means that you also do want to invest properly into it to make it worth it.
But for budget builds there are other non aegis alternatives, and you've guessed it non of them bothers to path down to iron reflexes as it's bad without big investment.

https://poe.ninja/builds/settlers?items=!Aegis+Aurora&class=Trickster&skills=Lightning+Strike&heatmap=true&atlasheatmap=true

For the build case of the OP even if it's just a single point it's not worth it to spec into it as the return is not really worth it as even a so single ES node provides better returns.

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Pashid wrote:

But for budget builds there are other non aegis alternatives, and you've guessed it non of them bothers to path down to iron reflexes as it's bad without big investment.

this thread is not about aegis alternatives or budget builds or any other hypothetical situation. lets stick to the facts. Op is using an aegis and has already pathed down to take all the block nodes. his only question was "should i take iron reflexes on a 65/65 block Shadow lightning strike build" the simple answer to that is "yes". i linked him to ninja so he doesnt just have to take my word for it and can see for himself.

i dont know why you try and complicate things, perhaps its to confuse people but there is really no need.

No but it's a good topic to dive into to give Op alternative options as their build seems to lack a few things here and there. Op also mentioned that they want to farm t16 8 mod which do require a solid build after all.
Op also noticed no difference for the spend point into the keystone which is honestly not really a surprise, so it's quite wrong to suggest them to keep it while it's a bad choice.

As is for their question it has been already answered by many that it's not worth it to spec into iron reflexes with the little amount of evasion they have.
They can use the passive point for other things with better returns and revisit the high end version with iron reflexes at a later point once it's worth it after putting some invests into more evasion, maybe defensive auras or a mageblood.

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Lyutsifer665 wrote:

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Pashid wrote:

But for budget builds there are other non aegis alternatives, and you've guessed it non of them bothers to path down to iron reflexes as it's bad without big investment.

this thread is not about aegis alternatives or budget builds or any other hypothetical situation. lets stick to the facts. Op is using an aegis and has already pathed down to take all the block nodes. his only question was "should i take iron reflexes on a 65/65 block Shadow lightning strike build" the simple answer to that is "yes". i linked him to ninja so he doesnt just have to take my word for it and can see for himself.

i dont know why you try and complicate things, perhaps its to confuse people but there is really no need.

I mean you are just ignoring what the OP said then.

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Have tested both and i really cannot see any difference.

Whole reason we gave the answers we did.

They arent seeing a large effect or "not seeing any difference" because they are far behind the evasion necessary for iron reflex to have a noticeable impact.

So we gave cheap alternatives until, if they choose to, get to that threshold.

Running Aegis you will want some armour yes, but the amount they have currently is not providing them sufficient numbers. Especially with CI you REALLY need armour. The OP just doesnt have that number yet to have a noticeable difference.


So coupled with not actually looking at the builds on ninja other than a quick glance, or selectively ignoring what those builds have... when you looked at them.


As seen by not excluding $$$ builds/mageblood etc..
Or looking at what armour/eva those builds had

Like just look at the people you reference from ninja on LS trickster aegis:

Look at all the people with capped spell suppress (OP has none)
Look at all the people with over 50k armor (OP barely reaches 30)

His ES on block is 629 with iron reflexes on versus 121 with it off. People on ninja have 3x that on block....

This is why they arent noticing a large difference or much at all when they throw on Iron Reflexes. They dont have the stats yet.

Please pay attention to the OP, they are trying to get help figuring out their build.

This is the gameplay help and both I and Pashid offered alternatives to iron reflex "not having much difference" and/or insight as to why that is the case.

Hope this helps OP!

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Pashid wrote:

As is for their question it has been already answered by many that it's not worth it to spec into iron reflexes with the little amount of evasion they have.
.

i dont know why you would spread such misinformation when OP can just go back one page and see this commet from another poster

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6_din_49 wrote:

For Aegis Aurora builds, I'd go with Iron Reflexes. You want to be hit by as many small hits as possible. If you want evasion, better use another shield.

and i agree with that poster. Op is not using an "aegis alternative" so iron reflexes is much beneficial for him.