Chat GPT is the best thing to happen to this game for New Players

I don't think opening the whole tree is much of an issue. It's how the information is presented.

Like more/increased damage. Last epoch explicitly says if a skill node is multiplicative increase.

A more serious issue is a lack of basic information, like how much am I hitting for, or how much am I getting hit for.

To calculate exact skill damage you need PoB, which is more of a distraction.

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hasatt0 wrote:

Like more/increased damage. Last epoch explicitly says if a skill node is multiplicative increase.

Lol and so does PoE.....you literally just said so. "More" is explicitly telling you the skill node is multiplicative.

"More vs. Increased" has about the same amount of useful information as "Multiplicative vs. Additive" to a person that doesn't understand it. And those that do know that they are....synonymous.

Disagree, if that person is rusty on middle school math, they can at least look it up, while «more/increased» is non-standard terminology.

Even worse is that the opposite of «increased» in PoE seems to be «reduced», rather than «decreased» ?!

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BlueTemplar85 wrote:

Disagree, if that person is rusty on middle school math, they can at least look it up, while «more/increased» is non-standard terminology.

Even worse is that the opposite of «increased» in PoE seems to be «reduced», rather than «decreased» ?!

It's more vs less tho, so reduced is the logical counterpart to increased in this instance

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BlueTemplar85 wrote:

Disagree, if that person is rusty on middle school math, they can at least look it up, while «more/increased» is non-standard terminology.

Even worse is that the opposite of «increased» in PoE seems to be «reduced», rather than «decreased» ?!

You also missed the point....

Even if the person is presented with "multiplicative" as the word, they most likely don't know what that actually means in the context of how damage is calculated for that game. Especially in situations where there are also sources of "additive".

But once you DO know, "more" and "multiplicative" offer the SAME information to the player. It is 100% clear, no matter what term is being used. And if you know basic math, "more" quite literally translates to multiplicative on its own.

I have 10 marbles. I gain 50% MORE marbles. That has a very specific mathematical meaning.

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ArtCrusade wrote:

It's more vs less tho, so reduced is the logical counterpart to increased in this instance

It's not grammatically logical.

Also, for some reason, the Help Page mentions both 'more' and 'less', as well as 'increased', but 'reduced' is missing.

P.S.: A worse issue is how PoE1 doesn't very clearly differentiate, for things (especially those that have a chance of happening) that :

1.) Start from a base of 100%, like :
- Rarity of items dropped by slain monsters
- almost all item modifiers
- attack / movement / projectile speed modifiers

2.) Start from a base of 0%, like :
- critical strike chance
- critical strike damage (not a chance, but for some reason here, would be better in category 1.)
- chance of various Ailments
- % leeching
- spell damage suppression chance
- resistances
- stun/block recovery ?

3.) Use a complicated formula, like :
- chance to hit / evade
(though this last category is probably better explained by showing it in a 3rd category in the «in an additive group / independent» axis)

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mefistozxz wrote:

You also missed the point....

Even if the person is presented with "multiplicative" as the word, they most likely don't know what that actually means in the context of how damage is calculated for that game. Especially in situations where there are also sources of "additive".

But once you DO know, "more" and "multiplicative" offer the SAME information to the player. It is 100% clear, no matter what term is being used. And if you know basic math, "more" quite literally translates to multiplicative on its own.

I have 10 marbles. I gain 50% MORE marbles. That has a very specific mathematical meaning.

Are you sure you didn't miss mine ?
As you can notice in the link I gave, I'm against the use of words altogether, even «multiplicative/additive» is somewhat confusing, since the additive ones, being percentages, are also multiplicative by definition.

EDIT : And local item modifiers ought to be clearly delineated,
either by separating them a bit like implicit modifiers and enchantments already are,
or using a different colour.

I first also thought that they ought to use the «more» signaling, rather than the «increased» one, because what other modifiers are there in their additive group ? — but then remembered the case of the likes of a Dragon Mace, where I presume both IAS are in the same group ? (In this case, due to rounding, the math doesn't make it clear either way.)


And the game should stop hiding implicit mods like armor movement speed penalties.

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BlueTemplar85 wrote:

but then remembered the case of the likes of a Dragon Mace, where I presume both IAS are in the same group ?

They are both local attack speed mods. But I agree, it's not at all clearly communicated.

And so they are added with each other, but together, multiplied with other additive groups (like the group that has both glove IAS and passive skill IAS), correct ?

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BlueTemplar85 wrote:

And so they are added with each other, but together, multiplied with other additive groups (like the group that has both glove IAS and passive skill IAS), correct ?

Additive with the local attack speed mod, which increases base attack speed and then gets multiplied by global attack speed modifiers and the like, yes.

Thanks.