Reminder: Selectable Character Gender is a "Minimum Bar."
" It's ironic that you immediately reminds others of how their arguments are toxic, by being toxic yourself in your first phrase of this thread, and then wants to play the victim. You are being unreasonable, sarcastic and dismissive of others, then complaining about how others are dismissive of you. You could easily delete your first and last sentences and made your point, but for some reason you decided they should be focused on. You weren't assertive, nor fierce-minded, nor submissive, but an ahole attracting other aholes to get attention. This didn't have to take the cringest turn i've ever seen in this forum, either. I agree that some games should not have locked gender, PoE included, but you are quickly eroding any arguments you made if that's how you want to keep conducting this argument. And let's not fool anyone, this is an argument, not a fact that all games that can do so, should be forced to do so. Ruthless should be [Removed by Support]. Last edited by AdRonZh3Ro on Jun 13, 2024, 3:36:21 PM
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" No argument, actually. Games with specific protagonists, a specific story set and built around those protagonists, are a different matter and I said so in my very first post. Not all games should do this. There's no need nor any good reason for a female Geralt in the Witcher, or a male Aloy in Horizon. Those are characters, not templates, and characters generally have fixed genders. PoE is not one of those games, though. Its PC classes are not characters. They ARE templates. You give the character your own choice of name, you give the character your choice of skills and build. Your choice of equipment, your choice of playstyle. Anyone who claims the different classes in Path of Exile are "characters" is blowing it out their hole just to be contrary. The classes in Path of exile have origins. they have flavors. But they do not have characterization beyond what little is built into their voice barks. And even then, as I said - the game doesn't care if you're playing a Witch dripping with necromantic energies and actively malevolent or a Templar striving to purify the world of sin and serve the humble and righteous. If the game doesn't care, I'm allowed to, ne? | |
"Ah, yes. "Submissive" and "breedable" - the two pillars of good discussion. You love to see it. | |
" You let emotions get in the way of arguments, and erode any good will people who may be on the fence about this topic might foster. And that's before we talk about how part of that quote may get this thread locked up... The opposite of knowledge is not illiteracy, but the illusion of knowledge.
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Sigh.
Art, it honestly doesn't matter how I present these sorts of requests or arguments. If I'm fiery and passionate like I have been, I get accused of being emotional, abrasive, and a bitch - and thus my opinions, desires, and even facts are invalid. If I exert effort to be calm, quiet, and reasonable, I get accused of lying about my feelings and position because people assume it doesn't matter to me given how inoffensive I'm being over it - and thus my opinions, desires, and facts are invalid. What it boils down to is people are fishing for an excuse to tell me to sod off and die because they'd prefer not to be reminded that this is an issue for some folks. No matter what I write, people will find fault with how or why I presented something rather than engaging in any sort of meaningful discussion. They WANT this to be an invalid request and for anyone who desires a selector toggle for gender/sex to feel bad and invalid for wanting it. Forever's been great. DarthSki brought up some interesting points as well, and Phrazz is worth listening to even when he disagrees with me, which is most of the time. For a few pages we were actually having some good discussion. Then I got eight more pages of people being trolls and accusing me of petty unimportant crap I've already debunked, like...seven times. I refuse to entertain arguments about technical limitations; GGG has themselves told us those limitations no longer exist. I've acknowledged the issues of VO price and workload multiple times and even said "yes, I know these are currently dealbreakers for the company"; people keep scourging me with those 'arguments' anyways. I keep getting people trying to score cheap Internet Man Card points by mic dropping on me rather than presenting any new thinking or engaging with anyone else's thinking. How would you propose I fix any of this? | |
"Not making ridiculous statements like "I wasn't submissive and breedable" and not being outright dismissive towards some very valid, logical and reasonable arguments against your agenda would be a good start. | |
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Ulsarek.
The only arguments I have "dismissed" are the ones that are eminently dismissable. Argument: "You're dumb and stupid for wanting this!" This isn't worth addressing and never has, it's not an argument. This is someone pitching a tantrum because they don't like someone asking for something. Argument: "Don't talk politics in my escapist fantasy!" I didn't. You, Mr. Argument Maker, did. Argument: "They would need to do twice the animation work and twice the model and twice the everything else for all the different characters!" No they wouldn't. Grinding Gear is using a single rig and animation framework for all humanoid entities in Path of Exile 2. Most animations for things like weapon skills can be reused wholesale, and where they can't be an existing animation from another class can be tweaked for a fraction of the resource cost. This was a valid concern, and still is, for PoE1. It is not a valid concern for PoE2. Argument: "VO is expensive, they'd have to spend so much money and man-hours to do this!" This is valid. I have acknowledged that, many times. This is the primary reason they are not currently doing gender selector for the various classes, I would be willing to bet. Argument: "I disagree with you. I don't think this is a minimum bar, and I feel like it's a waste of development resources they could put into making gameplay better instead." Valid, but not more valid than my desire for gender selector. I don't consider it a waste of resources, and I don't think it's as resource-intensive as many are portraying it as. I will also point out that the people responsible for creating a gender selection system in PoE - artists, animators, and modelers - are not the people responsible for doing gameplay tuning and balancing. This is not a trade in that way - the people who do balancing are unaffected by the people who do modeling/animation, at least for the most part. Unless there's a call for new assets to help with a new balance idea, these two workflows are largely separate. In either case, many people expect this to be all they need to say. "I disagree with you, therefore you are wrong." Okay. You're free to feel that way, but then there's not really any further point in posting here, ne? Make your disagreement known and move on. Argument: "You were mean and abrasive when making your point, therefore your point is wrong and you should feel bad!" Not an argument, not even really worth considering. Again, as I said to Art: people will be awful about this regardless of my presentation. You, for example, ignore almost everything I say save for the one minor nitpick you can use to try and get under my skin. There's not really any validity, logic, or reason involved in that, hm? Especially since you consider this an "agenda" rather than an ask/discussion/request. Trust me. We know what someone is saying when the word 'Agenda' is brought up. People in my position fully understand what 'Agenda' is a keyword for. You're free to think this is a meaningless, over-politicized request and constantly poke at buttons. I'm free to not care. Now, please present some new thinking. I will no longer be responding to any of these 'arguments' save for valid discussion on VO costs and developer labor/man-hour expenditure. Can we please move on from such inanity now? | |
" Is this a rhetorical question? You already know how to fix it. But let me entertain the question anyway: Don't start a thread by calling the forum userbase toxic? In the first sentence, I may add. That's where you immediately lost me, because someone who doesn't respect their audience is not deserving of respect themselves. Or, if respect is too much for you, if you cannot give goodwill to the community, why do you expect goodwill in return? And you end the thread how you started it. I quote: "[...] and in turn remind me of how fundamentally toxic and awful this community is. Have fun." Essentially, you poisoned the well, then got upset that people didn't respond positively to the condescending, abrasive language. Yes, some people can look past that and ignore the negativity you yourself brought into the topic, but most won't. As I said before: if GGG were to add the option to choose your gender. I am indifferent to the idea as I don't really care what my character looked like before I slapped my MTX on and disabled voice lines. I don't think this is a political topic at all, despite what some people say (if you go back a few pages, I call someone out on that bs). All I'm saying is you'd be a better advocate if you used less abrasive language. The opposite of knowledge is not illiteracy, but the illusion of knowledge.
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" It most certainly does, but let's make it crystal clear what you did wrong: 1)You throw out others points as excuses IMMEDIATELLY. 2)You belittle the player base by saying this is for the GGG to discuss, not them. 3)You throw out one source, then acts as if his opinion is the only that matters. 4)You admit this most likely doesn't matter. 5)Finish by insulting the community again. The literal first questions both Phrazz and Art made were to address 1) and 5), yet you just go "Yeah, i know, teehee". " Valid, but your opinion is more valid? Is this a joke? " It doesn't make your point wrong, it makes people disinterested in whatever argument you try to make. " " " " " " " " " " Except the obvious trolls, these are all valid. You're the one trying "vehemently" to discredit them by appealing to emotion, which will always be a weak stance to take in any argument. Emotion is not an argument, it's a highway to extortion. Make your point without bias, without one sided outlooks or cherry picked stances. Make your points with facts or make it crystal clear that this is your opinion and you welcome everyone else to share theirs. Otherwise, this gets pointless, as you've proven this to become. "Yeah, no. " Another entirely valid point of argument. It's their characters, not ours. Ruthless should be [Removed by Support]. Last edited by AdRonZh3Ro on Jun 13, 2024, 5:14:13 PM
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" Here is where I disagree. They have their own backgrounds. They have their own voices. Their own character traits. Their own reactions to the environment. The environment have different reactions to them. YOU have no say in what the character says. There are no conversation choices. YOU can't influence the story. In terms of the story, you only experience it; you do not influence it. To me it's pretty clear that GGG have tried to make them their own characters. If they've succeeded is a different matter. Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you.
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