Reminder: Selectable Character Gender is a "Minimum Bar."

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1453R wrote:

Yes, I was assertive and fierce-minded in my original post rather than being submissive and breedable.

You let emotions get in the way of arguments, and erode any good will people who may be on the fence about this topic might foster. And that's before we talk about how part of that quote may get this thread locked up...

Sigh.

Art, it honestly doesn't matter how I present these sorts of requests or arguments. If I'm fiery and passionate like I have been, I get accused of being emotional, abrasive, and a bitch - and thus my opinions, desires, and even facts are invalid. If I exert effort to be calm, quiet, and reasonable, I get accused of lying about my feelings and position because people assume it doesn't matter to me given how inoffensive I'm being over it - and thus my opinions, desires, and facts are invalid.

What it boils down to is people are fishing for an excuse to tell me to sod off and die because they'd prefer not to be reminded that this is an issue for some folks. No matter what I write, people will find fault with how or why I presented something rather than engaging in any sort of meaningful discussion. They WANT this to be an invalid request and for anyone who desires a selector toggle for gender/sex to feel bad and invalid for wanting it.

Forever's been great. DarthSki brought up some interesting points as well, and Phrazz is worth listening to even when he disagrees with me, which is most of the time. For a few pages we were actually having some good discussion. Then I got eight more pages of people being trolls and accusing me of petty unimportant crap I've already debunked, like...seven times.

I refuse to entertain arguments about technical limitations; GGG has themselves told us those limitations no longer exist. I've acknowledged the issues of VO price and workload multiple times and even said "yes, I know these are currently dealbreakers for the company"; people keep scourging me with those 'arguments' anyways. I keep getting people trying to score cheap Internet Man Card points by mic dropping on me rather than presenting any new thinking or engaging with anyone else's thinking.

How would you propose I fix any of this?

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1453R wrote:

How would you propose I fix any of this?

Not making ridiculous statements like "I wasn't submissive and breedable" and not being outright dismissive towards some very valid, logical and reasonable arguments against your agenda would be a good start.

Ulsarek.

The only arguments I have "dismissed" are the ones that are eminently dismissable.

Argument: "You're dumb and stupid for wanting this!" This isn't worth addressing and never has, it's not an argument. This is someone pitching a tantrum because they don't like someone asking for something.

Argument: "Don't talk politics in my escapist fantasy!" I didn't. You, Mr. Argument Maker, did.

Argument: "They would need to do twice the animation work and twice the model and twice the everything else for all the different characters!" No they wouldn't. Grinding Gear is using a single rig and animation framework for all humanoid entities in Path of Exile 2. Most animations for things like weapon skills can be reused wholesale, and where they can't be an existing animation from another class can be tweaked for a fraction of the resource cost. This was a valid concern, and still is, for PoE1. It is not a valid concern for PoE2.

Argument: "VO is expensive, they'd have to spend so much money and man-hours to do this!" This is valid. I have acknowledged that, many times. This is the primary reason they are not currently doing gender selector for the various classes, I would be willing to bet.

Argument: "I disagree with you. I don't think this is a minimum bar, and I feel like it's a waste of development resources they could put into making gameplay better instead." Valid, but not more valid than my desire for gender selector. I don't consider it a waste of resources, and I don't think it's as resource-intensive as many are portraying it as.

I will also point out that the people responsible for creating a gender selection system in PoE - artists, animators, and modelers - are not the people responsible for doing gameplay tuning and balancing. This is not a trade in that way - the people who do balancing are unaffected by the people who do modeling/animation, at least for the most part. Unless there's a call for new assets to help with a new balance idea, these two workflows are largely separate.

In either case, many people expect this to be all they need to say. "I disagree with you, therefore you are wrong." Okay. You're free to feel that way, but then there's not really any further point in posting here, ne? Make your disagreement known and move on.

Argument: "You were mean and abrasive when making your point, therefore your point is wrong and you should feel bad!" Not an argument, not even really worth considering. Again, as I said to Art: people will be awful about this regardless of my presentation. You, for example, ignore almost everything I say save for the one minor nitpick you can use to try and get under my skin. There's not really any validity, logic, or reason involved in that, hm? Especially since you consider this an "agenda" rather than an ask/discussion/request.

Trust me. We know what someone is saying when the word 'Agenda' is brought up. People in my position fully understand what 'Agenda' is a keyword for. You're free to think this is a meaningless, over-politicized request and constantly poke at buttons. I'm free to not care.

Now, please present some new thinking. I will no longer be responding to any of these 'arguments' save for valid discussion on VO costs and developer labor/man-hour expenditure.

Can we please move on from such inanity now?

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1453R wrote:

Sigh.

Art, it honestly doesn't matter how I present these sorts of requests or arguments. If I'm fiery and passionate like I have been, I get accused of being emotional, abrasive, and a bitch - and thus my opinions, desires, and even facts are invalid. If I exert effort to be calm, quiet, and reasonable, I get accused of lying about my feelings and position because people assume it doesn't matter to me given how inoffensive I'm being over it - and thus my opinions, desires, and facts are invalid.

[...]

How would you propose I fix any of this?

Is this a rhetorical question? You already know how to fix it. But let me entertain the question anyway:

Don't start a thread by calling the forum userbase toxic? In the first sentence, I may add. That's where you immediately lost me, because someone who doesn't respect their audience is not deserving of respect themselves. Or, if respect is too much for you, if you cannot give goodwill to the community, why do you expect goodwill in return?

And you end the thread how you started it. I quote: "[...] and in turn remind me of how fundamentally toxic and awful this community is. Have fun."

Essentially, you poisoned the well, then got upset that people didn't respond positively to the condescending, abrasive language.

Yes, some people can look past that and ignore the negativity you yourself brought into the topic, but most won't.

As I said before: if GGG were to add the option to choose your gender. I am indifferent to the idea as I don't really care what my character looked like before I slapped my MTX on and disabled voice lines. I don't think this is a political topic at all, despite what some people say (if you go back a few pages, I call someone out on that bs). All I'm saying is you'd be a better advocate if you used less abrasive language.

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1453R wrote:

Art, it honestly doesn't matter how I present these sorts of requests or arguments.

It most certainly does, but let's make it crystal clear what you did wrong:
1)You throw out others points as excuses IMMEDIATELLY.
2)You belittle the player base by saying this is for the GGG to discuss, not them.
3)You throw out one source, then acts as if his opinion is the only that matters.
4)You admit this most likely doesn't matter.
5)Finish by insulting the community again.

The literal first questions both Phrazz and Art made were to address 1) and 5), yet you just go "Yeah, i know, teehee".

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1453R wrote:

Argument: "I disagree with you. I don't think this is a minimum bar, and I feel like it's a waste of development resources they could put into making gameplay better instead." Valid, but not more valid than my desire for gender selector. I don't consider it a waste of resources, and I don't think it's as resource-intensive as many are portraying it as.

Valid, but your opinion is more valid? Is this a joke?

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1453R wrote:

Argument: "You were mean and abrasive when making your point, therefore your point is wrong and you should feel bad!" Not an argument, not even really worth considering. Again, as I said to Art: people will be awful about this regardless of my presentation. You, for example, ignore almost everything I say save for the one minor nitpick you can use to try and get under my skin. There's not really any validity, logic, or reason involved in that, hm? Especially since you consider this an "agenda" rather than an ask/discussion/request.

It doesn't make your point wrong, it makes people disinterested in whatever argument you try to make.

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jackof8lades wrote:

Already 0 interest in any opinion of you after reading this, didn't read the rest.

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Buissonix wrote:

IMO it's a bit wild to read such statements as "there is no excuse" as if GGG wronged its playerbase and owed everyone an apology.

And I respect them for staying faithful to their vision instead of juming into the pitfall of catering to the "modern audience".

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Ulsarek wrote:

It is entirely up to GGG whether or not they want to invest the resources required to realize such a feature.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

If gender is a dealbreaker for you playing the game....then that's on you and not the game.

It's also your absolute right to play games that you WANT to play. It is NOT your right to dictate any sort of baseline for anyone else's product.

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arknath wrote:

0 importance to add it imo. You only double/triple the cost/time for rigging equipment and mtx. It comes at a cost. It is up to GGG if they feel the cost is worth the minimal benefits.

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lupasvasile wrote:

I guess I'm one of those "weirdos" that simply does not care. Never did, and never will.

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ArtCrusade wrote:

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hmcg020 wrote:

I'd be interested in seeing a sex-selection. I sometimes think about making a melee witch just because of how cool her two-handed running animation is. If I didn't have to do that and could just make a female marauder, that would be cool.

I could not care less for a gender selection.

The OP started off their post in an antagonistic way, threaded that antagonism into every paragraph, then proceeded with repeated and consistent baiting language in every follow up post. It reminds me of those people that throw their arms and legs about in mosh pits, actively, eagerly engaging in behaviour that that could lead to a negative outcome. All to then say "see, mosh pits are dangerous!".

Honestly, that's what put me off immediately as well. "Hey, I want to have a discussion but let me start by telling everyone who disagrees me how much I loathe them" is such a great icebreaker.

You are basically inviting negativity that way.

Whatever.. I'm not even against the idea at all. It's the finger-wagging that gets me.

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Coconutdoggy wrote:

No it isn't.

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Pashid wrote:

oney or size doesn't really matter in this case cause it only comes down to what the devs want, not of what's possible or expected as bare minimum.
If they don't have genders it's just a choice of their own design just like bliz chooses to keep their game bad and as a money cow.

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Fapmobile wrote:

I disagree.

Except the obvious trolls, these are all valid. You're the one trying "vehemently" to discredit them by appealing to emotion, which will always be a weak stance to take in any argument. Emotion is not an argument, it's a highway to extortion.

Make your point without bias, without one sided outlooks or cherry picked stances. Make your points with facts or make it crystal clear that this is your opinion and you welcome everyone else to share theirs. Otherwise, this gets pointless, as you've proven this to become.

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1453R wrote:

Valid, but not more valid than my desire for gender selector.

Yeah, no.

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Phrazz wrote:

They have their own backgrounds. They have their own voices. Their own character traits. Their own reactions to the environment. The environment have different reactions to them. YOU have no say in what the character says. There are no conversation choices. YOU can't influence the story. In terms of the story, you only experience it; you do not influence it.

Another entirely valid point of argument. It's their characters, not ours.

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1453R wrote:

Its PC classes are not characters

Here is where I disagree.

They have their own backgrounds. They have their own voices. Their own character traits. Their own reactions to the environment. The environment have different reactions to them. YOU have no say in what the character says. There are no conversation choices. YOU can't influence the story. In terms of the story, you only experience it; you do not influence it.

To me it's pretty clear that GGG have tried to make them their own characters. If they've succeeded is a different matter.

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Phrazz wrote:

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1453R wrote:

Its PC classes are not characters

Here is where I disagree.

They have their own backgrounds. They have their own voices. Their own character traits. Their own reactions to the environment. The environment have different reactions to them. YOU have no say in what the character says. There are no conversation choices. YOU can't influence the story. In terms of the story, you only experience it; you do not influence it.

To me it's pretty clear that GGG have tried to make them their own characters. If they've succeeded is a different matter.

Which is valid. I simply don't see how this is incompatible with a gender toggle. If they're paying to do the extra VO anyways they can tweak the male and female version of each mechanical start to suit that gender. The Sorceress is a Maraketh woman - the putative Sorcerer might be a Maraketh man that's significantly more bitter and angry than the Sorceress because Maraketh society doesn't value men, or perhaps he's an Oriathan instead. The Marauder is a Karui raider; the female equivalent might be a high-seas brawler sentenced on piracy who uses the 'Karui Raider' start/Ascendancies because sure that works too.

The story of PoE2 as a whole doesn't care who or what you are. Sure, the individual exiles have their own characterization, but the broader tale doesn't care about that characterization. PoE2 doesn't lose anything if the game allows for gender selection, the way the Witcher or Horizon would lose things if their protagonist suddenly grew different bits. Is it more work for Grinding Gear? Sure. But that doesn't make the work any less worthwhile if they had decided to do it.

AdRon: You misunderstood. I didn't say your long list of people had opinions less valid than mine. I said their opinions and desires were not more valid, which most of them indicated they believed to be the case. Your argument is "all of these people have the opposite opinion, therefore they're more valid than you and you should shut the fuck up and die." No. Any player is allowed to think, feel, and desire whatever they think, feel and desire. The assertion I see in threads like these is almost always "there aren't enough of you to matter, so your thoughts/opinions/desires are null and void."

No. That is a dogshit nonargument and I refuse to accept it. Again - if there were so few of us that this didn't matter at all, why have hundreds and hundreds of games adopted it as a primary character creation axis for the last fifteen-odd years? The fact that you don't care, and a few dozen other people don't care, is not an indication that no one cares.

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1453R wrote:

Your argument is "all of these people have the opposite opinion, therefore they're more valid than you and you should shut the fuck up and die."

Oh, please. That's a straight up fabrication and melodramatization to ignore everything I've said, and if that's what you think of my arguments...

All you do is take your pick from a list of fallacies and go from there, trying to discredit anything anyone that you disagree with says.

Tone down the Straw Man Fallacy, the Bandwagon Fallacy, the Hasty Generalization Fallacy and the Anecdotal Evidence Fallacy. It gets tiring very fast and makes for even weaker arguments.