Well done GGG the economy will heal if this goes on forever

"

ShamelessWhiteknight wrote:

"

ArtCrusade wrote:

You can't be talking about me. Responding to you takes like 1 minutes while I am about to finish my 2nd level 100 in SSFHC lmao, the cope

Nope, just saying it's a stupid argument that goes both ways, and again I could say pretty much the exact same thing back.

Responding to you takes like 1 minutes while I am about to finish my 2nd level 100 in Last Epoch, the cope

See, it's pointless

They are not the same thing, and they do not describe the same scenario.

In this example, lets assume a hypothetical, totally unrelated "Unnamed Person A" has publicly declared ~3 weeks ago that they are done with the season, that they are oh so unhappy and that they are moving on to other games. Still, "Unnamed Person A" continues posting negative comments (as in: not providing feedback, not being interested in an honest discussion, being disrespectful towards others and emitting bad vibes).

Compared to actively playing a game and participating in discussion in and around it? Yea, those are not the same thing.

There is a difference between "a single specific thing" and the defining issue.

If we are to talk about the reasons (note it's plural) on WHY people stop playing then by all means... let's talk about the reasons.

If you want to say all the reasons boil down to "league = bad" and the evidence of that is "player retention", then I'm sorry that's not science, or logic, or math, or even basic English.

I can't comment on the basis of superstition, imagination, conjuring things out of thing air.

If anyone on GGG has ever said that the success of the league is measured by player retention then we need to examine the context, the exact words, and the level of literacy of this person. I mean NO OFFENSE by this. That person might simply be ignorant (as well all are at something).

An authority figure, in it and of it self, it's not reason enough to conclude a premise is right. That's literally a logical fallacy, an error.

Concurrent Players = Concurrent Players.
Player retention = player retention.
Neither is a metric of a successful league.

These are catchy concepts good for board meetings and investors. They provide a sense of potential MTX sales.

---

Now, @jsuslak313 brings up an interesting point:



I think the proper term would be customer loyalty or Brand Loyalty. We shouldn't use "player retention" interchangeably with already established terms.

Think about it people... what's better?
A. Customer that stays the entire league
B. Customer that is loyal to the brand (returns over and over and picks this brand over another brand)

I'm sorry but GGG / streamers need to sit down with a doctor and an economist and chat about this issue. Any professional worth it's salt will be able to corroborate. All of this is too basic. Saying anything to the contrary of basic established science is a reason for a board review.

---

I'm so sad I didn't pay attention to this topic and dug further before. I thought it was just dumb kids saying "league = bad" like a funny meme. Now, I see grown ups doing streams and making posts and refusing basic logic / English / science. This is not right. This is quite the opposite. This is harmful.

I've been wrong and corrected myself. It literally happened in this post! So, I ask of ALL OF YOU to have some humility and examine yourself and your beliefs. Once you do that and take at least a day to actually think things through, please come back with a solid argument based on science and used the right term for the right job. Let's call cats, cats and dogs, dogs.

---

Edit: I realize some people might not understand why a doctor and an economist. There is no mistake here. Both are trained on how to analyze charts, data, and have sufficient knowledge of human behavior to expel the myth that "player retention drops because league is bad". Also, those are two professions found everywhere xD so there is no excuse for finding a competent one.

---

Reference:
https://www.nicereply.com/blog/the-importance-of-customer-loyalty/
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/brand-loyalty.asp

"

ArtCrusade wrote:

They are not the same thing, and they do not describe the same scenario.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

Except there is a WORLD of difference posting 1000x on a forum of a game you LIKE, and posting 1000x on a forum of a game you DON'T. And especially posting about things you have never and likely will never even do.

It does NOT go both ways.

Actually, it's more common for dissatisfied customers to voice their concerns while happy ones often stay silent. So, in a way, my argument holds more truth than both of yours.

Just a little example for why looking at 3 week player retention as the sole metric to evaluate whether a season was good or not is silly:

A lot of people play for challenge completion. Some only care about the MTX rewards, others want full 40/40 completion. Many of those people quit after reaching that goal. That's one reason why many of the challenges require a certain amount of maps to be ran.

Some leagues have easier grind challenges than others. Are those seasons somehow worse because those players quit after 1 or 2 weeks?

"

ArtCrusade wrote:

Some leagues have easier grind challenges than others. Are those seasons somehow worse because those players quit after 1 or 2 weeks?

I mean, objectively? Yes.
Subjectively? Depends on your personal experience

Let's talk sales: a cereal company introduces a new cereal. MANY people swear by that cereal, its the best thing ever, anyone that offers a "rating" of the cereal is rating it 10/10.
BUT broadly, the cereal is not selling well. The numbers just aren't there.

What matters? The ratings, the people who love the cereal, the people buying the cereal? No......not really. Ultimately, the ONLY thing that matters is that: the cereal is not selling well.

That is player retention: an almost direct measure of "sales" of the league. If the sales are not there, the league is a dud.

*Concession*
The stat that could disprove my whole point.....is "At what point in a league do sales of mtx and stash tabs SLOW/STOP?". If the answer is "At the 2-week mark", then nothing past the first 2 weeks of a league matters, not even retention.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

"

ShamelessWhiteknight wrote:

"

ArtCrusade wrote:

You can't be talking about me. Responding to you takes like 1 minutes while I am about to finish my 2nd level 100 in SSFHC lmao, the cope

Nope, just saying it's a stupid argument that goes both ways, and again I could say pretty much the exact same thing back.

Responding to you takes like 1 minutes while I am about to finish my 2nd level 100 in Last Epoch, the cope

See, it's pointless

Except there is a WORLD of difference posting 1000x on a forum of a game you LIKE, and posting 1000x on a forum of a game you DON'T. And especially posting about things you have never and likely will never even do.

It does NOT go both ways.

Ever heard of "hate watching"?

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

"

ArtCrusade wrote:

Some leagues have easier grind challenges than others. Are those seasons somehow worse because those players quit after 1 or 2 weeks?

I mean, objectively? Yes.
Subjectively? Depends on your personal experience

Let's talk sales: a cereal company introduces a new cereal. MANY people swear by that cereal, its the best thing ever, anyone that offers a "rating" of the cereal is rating it 10/10.
BUT broadly, the cereal is not selling well. The numbers just aren't there.

What matters? The ratings, the people who love the cereal, the people buying the cereal? No......not really. Ultimately, the ONLY thing that matters is that: the cereal is not selling well.

That is player retention: an almost direct measure of "sales" of the league. If the sales are not there, the league is a dud.

The retention over time mostly matters for GGG. More time spent playing the game = more exposure to sales, new MTX drops, need for supporter packs etc.

And yeah, +1 for subjectiveness. I don't care how many other people are enjoying a game like Diablo 4. I'd rather listen to d4 bad bossa nova

I finished the game Stray in one sitting of ~6 hours and it was a marvellous experience. I wouldn't call it a bad game only because it didn't provide more content. People try to equate quantity to quality

"

ArtCrusade wrote:

And yeah, +1 for subjectiveness. I don't care how many other people are enjoying a game like Diablo 4. I'd rather listen to d4 bad bossa nova

Right. Subjectiveness is notoriously difficult and tricky to argue. It doesn't mean it isn't valuable.

BUT

The OBJECTIVE measure we have of the "success" of a league, not the FUN or the QUALITY, is player retention. We do not have access to sales-over-time information.

It is not on US the player to determine success, as we are not the ones that make judgments on what to do next in the development cycle. It is on the developer and what THEY care about.

Our role as the player is: what did we LIKE, what did we DISLIKE, what do we want to see in the future? But not "success".


There could be something that players collectively HATE (cough, cough, artificial time manipulation, cough), but if it means more players and more money, it is a success.

OP has a terrible idea about the game economy, somehow thinking that Divines magically go down in price in a good league. He ignores supply and demand and just micro focus on the price of one item. Hello? With a huge oversupply of Divines the price dropped. Period. Why was there a huge oversupply of Divines? The 1% using (close to) exploits. There you go. Come on man.

Anyway, for me a good league is something fun to play...like Sentinel, Scourge or Affliction. The worst leagues? See Necropolis League which is in a league of it's own for not being fun - saved somewhat by the base game being in unbelievably great shape.

"

MrWonderful99 wrote:

Spoiler

OP has a terrible idea about the game economy, somehow thinking that Divines magically go down in price in a good league. He ignores supply and demand and just micro focus on the price of one item. Hello? With a huge oversupply of Divines the price dropped. Period. Why was there a huge oversupply of Divines? The 1% using (close to) exploits. There you go. Come on man.

Anyway, for me a good league is something fun to play...like Sentinel, Scourge or Affliction. The worst leagues? See Necropolis League which is in a league of it's own for not being fun - saved somewhat by the base game being in unbelievably great shape.

This is an unfair characterization void of anything I wrote on the original post (https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3514952) and the deeper dive that has thrown to light a deeply rooted misconception.

Thanks for the clarification on WHY the currency dropped. I had no idea. I assumed GGG was doing something right (like last league), but if what you say it's true and it wasn't by design but solely explained by exploiting, then I'll uninstall the game.

---



Edit: Accidentally we are talking about YET ANOTHER factor that influences player retention.