POE2 and SSF

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

Additionally, asking for SSF to get drops that counter the lack of trade does the exact opposite of the intended purpose of SSF when created: it makes it the default easy mode, when originally it was supposed to be added difficulty for those that opt into it.

The original intended purpose doesn't matter though. It's not sacred. You can't upset or offend it. It's not even a thing anymore, it's a thought someone had a long time ago.

All discussion of potential changes to a game is implicitly about making changes from the developers' original intentions. That's okay, that's normal.

This is a fantastic point. As are all of your other points. 10/10, no notes.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

It's not necessarily meant to be fun; just like walking between packs/areas or leveling in the game isn't necessarily supposed to be fun in and of itself.

Uh, I'll give you "walking between packs", but what people commonly refer to as "leveling" is many many hours worth of painstakingly constructed videogame campaign. It is absolutely supposed to be fun in and of itself.

Unless you do just mean the act of clicking that level-up button and assigning the point. Which I do happen to enjoy (indeed, skill tree planning/advancement is probably the thing I enjoy most in the game).

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Nubatron wrote:

For me, this breaks the pact between the player and developer.

The only pact I've made with the developer is agreeing to abide by the Terms of Service, not agreeing to adopt a particular viewpoint about "dimensions of progression".

You don't need trade in order to have 'resistance to progression', nor to overcome it. There are countless games out there without trade at all, showing that it's not actually a vital ingredient.

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Nubatron wrote:

Viewing trade as a fun/no-fun part of the game is the wrong lens from my perspective.

That's fine, but it can still be an entirely valid lens from other people's perspective. This isn't a job, it's my leisure time and I'm not interested in spending it doing things I really dislike doing.

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Nubatron wrote:

Additionally, asking for SSF to get drops that counter the lack of trade does the exact opposite of the intended purpose of SSF when created: it makes it the default easy mode, when originally it was supposed to be added difficulty for those that opt into it.

The original intended purpose doesn't matter though. It's not sacred. You can't upset or offend it. It's not even a thing anymore, it's a thought someone had a long time ago.

All discussion of potential changes to a game is implicitly about making changes from the developers' original intentions. That's okay, that's normal.

That's specifically why I said "in and of itself". Leveling and requiring levels is a tool for resistance while you experience other parts of the gameplay.

The games that don't have trade alienated some people as well. D3 going "soulbound" meant I left and never looked back. It's not that I think trade is overly necessary or fun, it's that it added an additional factor for me to think about and made each drop potentially have value even if I didn't need it. It also made getting a good drop feel better for me. D3 post soulbound decision meant that it just rained equipment and made the hunt for loot in a loot hunter genre too trivial.

I agree that change is part of potentially deviating from what the developers envisioned. That's not always true because sometimes concessions are made in the creation of something to get it out the door, and they can come back later to revisit those compromises. That being said, there are certain things that are viewed as core components of their vision, and as a player I trust that they'll stay true to those core components. There are plenty of games that cater to what OP is looking for. There is no objective better or worse, just a decision on what the answer is by the developer. I personally think games that have different approaches is great for the genre, because otherwise we have a homogenized mess of basically the same vision repeated over and over again.

LE is a good example of that. They took a lot of games ideas, mixed them together and added their own ideas to that amalgamation. It will appeal to some people more, and others less. I've enjoyed playing it but found it to be very simple and not particularly challenging so far. Unless something changes dramatically for me, it feels like a game where I do the playthrough once and put it on the shelf. It doesn't feel like it has enough resistance to keep my interest for very terribly long.

Resistance is a necessary component in games; especially a loot hunter game and there will always be a section of people who disagree with how the resistance is applied. Even with leveling, there is a consistent flow of people requesting the ability to skip to maps immediately after the first playthrough.

Anyway, obviously you're free to request changes to what appears to be a big part of their core vision. Good luck.

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Nubatron wrote:

The games that don't have trade alienated some people as well.

Can't really tell what you're getting at in this part. Any category of game has alienated some people; that doesn't really tell us anything, surely.

There's nothing inherent about SSF that makes it a "self inflected hard mode" or whatever tho. It's just that the game is balanced around trade so that's how it turned out.

So people who prefer this way of playing(ie wanting to find your own gear instead of just buying it) by default gets a harder and more tedious experience. Which is what the OP and me are questioning.

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la_blue_girl wrote:

There's nothing inherent about SSF that makes it a "self inflected hard mode" or whatever tho. It's just that the game is balanced around trade so that's how it turned out.

So people who prefer this way of playing(ie wanting to find your own gear instead of just buying it) by default gets a harder and more tedious experience. Which is what the OP and me are questioning.

You can do the same thing by playing in the Trade league and just not trade or party up. Actually, this is what people did before they added the separation through an extra tag.

So more accurately, the question is if they want to take inspiration from LE's take on "SSF with benefits" or leave it as is. I'm fine with either tbh. The only gripe I have with SSF is uber elder fragment swaps still not being a thing

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@OP: I get that you don't want to do chores, but you're not only asking to have your cake and eat it too (to play SSF, but ask for hand-outs), you're also suggesting something that would impact the experience negatively of many people.

If you don't want to trade, don't trade. You can do that on SC trade league, just requires discipline. So if you don't care about the tag, then do that.

I play SSF/GSF for the first month of every league, which gives ample time to clear feared, ubers and 40/40. And you want to make that easier? No thanks!

If you want easier (no chores, as you call it) they can create an "easy-mode" checkbox, where you get more loot. I suggest they include a tag on your character as well. Then lets see if you really don't care about the tag, or if you're just doing the SSF to flex, and then have the audacity to complain about it too.

LE is a good choice for the SSF players that want easy mode. Doesn't hold a candle to PoE's endgame, but still 100 times better than D4. That might be the game for you then?

Leave SSF alone!

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FalkenRaiding wrote:

-1

@OP: I get that you don't want to do chores, but you're not only asking to have your cake and eat it too (to play SSF, but ask for hand-outs), you're also suggesting something that would impact the experience negatively of many people.

If you don't want to trade, don't trade. You can do that on SC trade league, just requires discipline. So if you don't care about the tag, then do that.

I play SSF/GSF for the first month of every league, which gives ample time to clear feared, ubers and 40/40. And you want to make that easier? No thanks!

If you want easier (no chores, as you call it) they can create an "easy-mode" checkbox, where you get more loot. I suggest they include a tag on your character as well. Then lets see if you really don't care about the tag, or if you're just doing the SSF to flex, and then have the audacity to complain about it too.

LE is a good choice for the SSF players that want easy mode. Doesn't hold a candle to PoE's endgame, but still 100 times better than D4. That might be the game for you then?

Leave SSF alone!

This seems like a self-defeating post.

Why should they "leave SSF alone" when as you rightly point out, you can just do what you want to do in the regular trade league (indeed, by "GSF", I assume you already do)? Surely if your advice is good enough to give to other people it's good enough to take yourself.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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FalkenRaiding wrote:

-1

@OP: I get that you don't want to do chores, but you're not only asking to have your cake and eat it too (to play SSF, but ask for hand-outs), you're also suggesting something that would impact the experience negatively of many people.

If you don't want to trade, don't trade. You can do that on SC trade league, just requires discipline. So if you don't care about the tag, then do that.

I play SSF/GSF for the first month of every league, which gives ample time to clear feared, ubers and 40/40. And you want to make that easier? No thanks!

If you want easier (no chores, as you call it) they can create an "easy-mode" checkbox, where you get more loot. I suggest they include a tag on your character as well. Then lets see if you really don't care about the tag, or if you're just doing the SSF to flex, and then have the audacity to complain about it too.

LE is a good choice for the SSF players that want easy mode. Doesn't hold a candle to PoE's endgame, but still 100 times better than D4. That might be the game for you then?

Leave SSF alone!

This seems like a self-defeating post.

Why should they "leave SSF alone" when as you rightly point out, you can just do what you want to do in the regular trade league (indeed, by "GSF", I assume you already do)? Surely if your advice is good enough to give to other people it's good enough to take yourself.

Not self defeating in the slightest.
3 reasons why I can't (won't) follow me own advice:

1) When I play GSF, I play in a closed economy of 5-15 players. We get our own leaderboards and see when someone enters a new area etc. Can't get that on trade.

2) Whenever I don't league start GSF, I league start SSF. And I DO care about the tag when my char hits level 100, the SSF ladder on PoE ninja etc. Can't get that on trade either.

3) I do NOT have the discipline to be on trade and never trade. So I stay away from it. I know myself well enough for that.

And I don't want any of this ruined by the game made easier for me.

Well, I think you're selling yourself short. If you have the discipline to set up a private league, if you have the discipline to get to 40/40, you have the discipline to just not trade. Not trading is not doing something, after all; it requires literally no effort.

I mean, another separate option is absolutely fine with me, don't get me wrong. But at the very least, if you're not even capable of doing the things you're happy to tell people to do, maybe it'd be better to just...leave out the weird passive-aggressive snark ("Then lets see if you really don't care about the tag, or if you're just doing the SSF to flex, and then have the audacity to complain about it too.")? Feels like the audacity is coming from inside the house.

Also, this "maybe <something else> is the game for you" stuff is always silly. People are here posting suggestions for change on the POE forum because they want to play POE.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

Also, this "maybe <something else> is the game for you" stuff is always silly. People are here posting suggestions for change on the POE forum because they want to play POE.

Exactly. PoE is still the best ARPG available, and I'm very excited about PoE2 - I love everything else I'm hearing from Jonathan and team. This is literally my only point of concern.

Also, when it comes to Group Self-Found, or "BroSF", I'm very much in favour. I think that something along the lines of a token that you get every hour that you play with another player, which allows you to trade with just them, would be a fine addition to PoE2. I totally think that BroSF, FullSF, and unrestricted trade can live together in the same game. Again, a quick glance at my second-favourite ARPG, Last Epoch, kinda proves exactly this point.

@FalkenRaiding, I don't want GGG to take away your GSF/BroSF options; I'd like them to give you even better options. I'd even like them to make the full-trade experience better for people who love that, like maybe by integrating the trade site's functions into the game client the way people keep asking for. I have no objection to GGG reducing the friction surrounding trade. I'd just also like GGG to remember that not everybody loves to trade, and to allow people who just want not to trade to also enjoy more of the fun monster-killing bits that they're building in the sequel.