why PoE is dying

Ain't nothing with an easy game, or a dumbed down one. In fact some of the best games are easy to play. I wouldn't say poe is hard but that it keeps information from the player. Ultimately it's information that is needed to fully play the game.

The fact is poe doesn't keep people engaged. A lot of players think the game is fundamentally flawed.

Poe has a lot of cool and novel ideas. The support gems stated it as cool and interesting, and just became damage.
The other fact is that poe isn't a good experierence for a few. Some love it. It slowly becomes hours of tedious grinding followed by the relief that your item didn't brick again. If relief that you finally got a div altar before killing every monster in the map.

The rewards aren't there.

And trade is designed to feel bad.

I get this is subjective, but play the game long enough and excitement turns into frustration. Frustration that old builds don't work, that a favorite skill is too slow for trade, that you have to wade through mtx vomit rouge harbor again.

It is a shame that the options easy to play this hack and smash action rig is to sit in hideout and spam afk players or poorly designed bots. But it was fun to instakill five way carries with the new belt before they patches it.

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Phrazz wrote:

Why isn't it your cup of tea? It's an ARPG in the Diablo IP with a "PC port" so you can play on your PC 'like' any other ARPG.

I honestly forgot that it was a PC port as well. I don't like mobile or gacha games in general. In fact I don't know if I have even tried any aside from Genshin on the PS5 for around 30 minutes a few years back.

Edit: Perhaps I will PM Mr. Chan on the DI matter as I think he did play on his tablet for a bit. I would be interested in his overall thoughts, although I think he also isn't a fan of gacha/mobile in general either. I do respect his opinions, so if his feedback was positive on DI, I might consider at least trying it on the PC to see for myself.

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No one is denying that DI is an economical success (I think/hope). They would have to fail HARD to not make money off of a game solely designed to make as much money as they can, through every corner of the game. What I see a lot of people saying, is that DI is crap, a cash-grab, a failure towards the long time fans of the IP and so on. You know, actual opinions, often based on experience/actually trying the game.

Opinions are fine. The problem arises when that opinion is communicated as a fact, or it somehow supersedes what others are experiencing, or think. So yes in some circles mobile and gacha games are viewed as low-quality, cash grab, trash. However the empirical evidence suggests that is not the case for everyone. Perhaps its more of the case that the opponents to this style of game are more vocal than the silent majority that just play them without going to various social sites or community hubs to promote them. Which I actually respect in that context. They just play what they like, and don't make a fuss about it. It's not what I would do, clearly, as I do visit forums and engage in debate, but I can appreciate their approach of just staying out of the fray, and living their best life despite what virtue signaling might be occurring around them.

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People/companies can turn bad products, or even scams, into economical successes. You don't really seem to have opinions. "It's an economical success, so any negative opinion regarding gameplay, mechanics and monetization are wrong"?

It's not that I don't have an opinion. I think I was clear in what I said that it's not a binary situation where the entire mobile market is either "good" or "bad". Its quite apparent that for many people the mobile gaming market is something they are interested in, and have no problem spending on. I don't like mobile games, I don't play any. But that doesn't mean I'm blind. Maybe a bit ignorant on the day-to-day operations of some of the larger mobile games and their performance, but does that mean I cannot have an opinion? I don't think so? How many mobile games would I have to play to qualify for having an opinion on the matter? Again mobile games are not for me. The data suggests that they are for quite a few others...

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It's not about not understanding. I unnderstand perfectly well why every game Blizzard makes is designed from the ground up to reach as many players as possible, through making them easy/shallow/easy-to-digest. It's about liking it based on your preferences. And for a lot of people with a history of loving the "good, old" Blizzard games where making a VERY GOOD experience for less people seemed more important than making a "good enough" experience for more people, the outcome(s) = bad, no matter the success.

But we've had this discussion a million times.

Here is the thing though, and I know we have been through this often, especially on D3. And you kind of touch on it here when you mention "preferences". That sentence sorta contradicts the other part of your post because you are both acknowledging that people might have different experiences or thoughts on a genre or targeted game, while simultaneously categorizing specific games as scams, cash-grabs, predatory, whatever negative description you want. It just highlights the point that the quality or experience of the game is determined by the user / customer, not what others may think.

Taking a more basic approach. If someone thinks DI is a good mobile game, and someone else does not, it turns out that both are "correct" in as so much as their experience dictates. The notion that "DI sucks" is the more correct observation is the inherent flaw I see in many similar arguments about other games.

The TLDR being, in this case, "DI sucks", and I would say "according to whom? You?", because it doesn't appear to be the case for others. And I wouldn't classify those people as mindless drones (or something to that effect), or clueless people getting scammed. I would say they are folks that don't share your viewpoint, and it's as simple as that.

*not that you said that specifically Phrazz, just the overall commentary I see referring to people who play and spend on mobile/gacha games.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Here is the thing though, and I know we have been through this often, especially on D3. And you kind of touch on it here when you mention "preferences". That sentence sorta contradicts the other part of your post because you are both acknowledging that people might have different experiences or thoughts on a genre or targeted game, while simultaneously categorizing specific games as scams, cash-grabs, predatory, whatever negative description you want. It just highlights the point that the quality or experience of the game is determined by the user / customer, not what others may think.

Taking a more basic approach. If someone thinks DI is a good mobile game, and someone else does not, it turns out that both are "correct" in as so much as their experience dictates. The notion that "DI sucks" is the more correct observation is the inherent flaw I see in many similar arguments about other games.

The TLDR being, in this case, "DI sucks", and I would say "according to whom? You?", because it doesn't appear to be the case for others. And I wouldn't classify those people as mindless drones (or something to that effect), or clueless people getting scammed. I would say they are folks that don't share your viewpoint, and it's as simple as that.

*not that you said that specifically Phrazz, just the overall commentary I see referring to people who play and spend on mobile/gacha games.

And I think I agree with everything here. And are there people out there that find DI a "good mobile game" (I like how you have to use "mobile" and not just "game")? Of course there are, strangely enough. The problem isn't the game itself. The problem is when they use the IP they are using. "Diablo", with its history and fanbase. We even saw the reactions when they announced it.

But yes, it's always about preferences - and that goes both ways. Saying "Diablo 3/DI sucks" like it's a fact, is a problem - the same way saying "Diablo 3/DI is good" like it's a fact is a problem. I think I've always been clear that when I criticize Diablo games, it's always from a subjective point of view, which is shared by many D1/2 fans. "Diablo 3 sucks" is of course not a fact. "Diablo 3 sucks for a lot of people" is a fact, the same way "Diablo 3 is a good game for a lot of people" is a fact. But you went all out on me in a different thread, just because I wouldn't call D3 "a good game", even though "my preference" different.

But I agree, posting something as a "fact", or using numbers to make one preference "more true" than the other is meaningless.

*And regarding "scam"; I don't view DI as a scam. It was just me trying to illustrate that "everything" can be made into a "economical success", especially using a huge IP's name in the process. Everything using the Diablo name will be a success - even just on presales alone, no matter the quality.

This is the first season that I've seen videos that really. really make me question wtf is going on with POE. Really turned me off. There's one detailing how to get a carry from 95 to 100, there's one that explains how to efficiently run and roll maps, there was one that had crafting with currency that was so esoteric that I had to do a double take.

The fact that game is so convoluted that you need a video to help rolling maps (or someone thought you did) is silly. the fact that people really struggle to hit 100 and carrying is really the way to get there shows how punishing the game is. The game is difficult enough in other areas. Then the video with the crafting...again, its too convoluted. Does there really need to be six different crafting systems in the game with no explanation of what is going on?

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jdp29 wrote:

This is the first season that I've seen videos that really. really make me question wtf is going on with POE. Really turned me off. There's one detailing how to get a carry from 95 to 100, there's one that explains how to efficiently run and roll maps, there was one that had crafting with currency that was so esoteric that I had to do a double take.

The fact that game is so convoluted that you need a video to help rolling maps (or someone thought you did) is silly. the fact that people really struggle to hit 100 and carrying is really the way to get there shows how punishing the game is. The game is difficult enough in other areas. Then the video with the crafting...again, its too convoluted. Does there really need to be six different crafting systems in the game with no explanation of what is going on?

Yes? Just read or look it a guide it's like school dude.

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jdp29 wrote:

This is the first season that I've seen videos that really. really make me question wtf is going on with POE. Really turned me off. There's one detailing how to get a carry from 95 to 100, there's one that explains how to efficiently run and roll maps, there was one that had crafting with currency that was so esoteric that I had to do a double take.

The fact that game is so convoluted that you need a video to help rolling maps (or someone thought you did) is silly. the fact that people really struggle to hit 100 and carrying is really the way to get there shows how punishing the game is. The game is difficult enough in other areas. Then the video with the crafting...again, its too convoluted. Does there really need to be six different crafting systems in the game with no explanation of what is going on?

While I agree that the game is somewhat convoluted, and that there are tons of things GGG could and should do to improve the situation, we can really claim that the "need for efficiency" is something new within the genre. Diablo 2 also had a pretty huge speed community. Much of the difference here, is media/youtube.

You don't have to efficiently roll your maps; I don't. You don't have to use efficient leveling strategies. I don't. You don't have to speed run the acts. I don't.

Is crafting too convoluted? Absolutely. And the fact that it's spread out over a lot of different mechanics is pretty dumb. They should absolutely merge some mechanics here. And why they haven't merge Bestiary into Harvest is beyond me. It would be very easy.

Regarding level 100? It is easier to reach than ever, even without carry services. Do I agree that carry services to level 100 are stupid? Yes. Do I think everyone and their grandmother should reach level 100 without some "struggle"? No. I wish they made leveling like Diablo 2, with no real hard cap, but so severe diminishing returns that certain levels become more or less unreachable. It would remove this "I should be able to hit 100" attitude.

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Coconutdoggy wrote:

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jdp29 wrote:

This is the first season that I've seen videos that really. really make me question wtf is going on with POE. Really turned me off. There's one detailing how to get a carry from 95 to 100, there's one that explains how to efficiently run and roll maps, there was one that had crafting with currency that was so esoteric that I had to do a double take.

The fact that game is so convoluted that you need a video to help rolling maps (or someone thought you did) is silly. the fact that people really struggle to hit 100 and carrying is really the way to get there shows how punishing the game is. The game is difficult enough in other areas. Then the video with the crafting...again, its too convoluted. Does there really need to be six different crafting systems in the game with no explanation of what is going on?

Yes? Just read or look it a guide it's like school dude.

But it isn't school. It's a freaking videogame. How much time you do want to waste outside of the game? Years ago, I belonged to a bookclub. And for one fateful time, the head decided to read James Joyce. This attracted A LOT of people who had never been to the club. One person, in particular, stood out. She actually had a degree of some sort as it related to Joyce's work. And she proceeded to lecture the group on why you needed this degree to really enjoy James Joyce. (Mind you, I was somewhat skeptical of her point, but it was true that there was a lot of subtext that the group missed and she pointed out) I've thought about that though, Do you really want to make a game so complicated that you literally need a degree to understand it?

But that wasn't the point of my post. It wasn't that someone made a video about carrying, I've known about it forever. It wasn't that someone made a video about rolling maps, I've known people do that. It wasn't that someone made a video with convoluted crafting. I've watched the content creator's videos before, he always goes for insane crafts.

No, the issue was the aggregate of all these videos taken as a whole. Namely, that game is more about the meta of the game, rather than playing the actual game. More time is spent fiddling with things rather than killing mobs in maps. More time is spent looking up something because the game doesn't tell you about it, or hides it in some forgotten place. It's like the creators purposely made a game where the player spends time doing anything other than playing the game.

Oh i love me some JJ/U comparisons when it comes to PoE. They are not unfounded in terms of the necessity of guidance but fall short when it comes to enrichment of that guidance. Spent an entire semester in third year lit theory disassembling Ulysses (each student was assigned a chapter) and that only after a few weeks of the prof guiding us on how to proceed. As a result it is absolutely one of my favourite books but I know for a fact I wouldnt be able to read it without that experience. It's just too old and too preoccupied with its cleverness. I keep trying Gravitys Rainbow but again, without a guide or some sort of hand-holding, it just flies right over my head (pun intended).

Some books need that. Some tv shows need it too. And some games.

Amusingly the game that comes to mind for me in that regard isn't PoE but a little strategy game called Dominions. Look it up if you don't know what it is. I believe it's up to its 5th title and makes PoE look pretty simple. But devotees of it can talk for hours about the depth and make it sound *incredibly* interesting. It wasn't my cup of tea so I passed but I was always up to listen to stories about it from those who really got into it. See also: how Eve makes for incredible journalism and narrative but is a completely different experience as a game in and of itself.

PoE has the depth and the demand of a JJ novel but not the reward. No one can make it sound interesting when they recount their exploits in Wraeclast or beyond. It is all inside baseball from the start. And that's boring unless you are really into baseball. Whereas I can tell you that Ulysses is full of hilarious exchanges, lust, envy, ruminations on art, fistfights, wanking (good god so much wanking), fireworks, drinking...and with some brushing up I could share these without Joyce's flourishes and they may well be enough to get someone at least looking at the wiki.

Can't do the same for Finnegans Wake because it IS also all inside baseball. Written to confound critics and academics for decades -- just as PoE is now made to challenge buildcrafters and trade junkies for years. Is FW brilliant? Absolutely -- it pushes English harder than anything else ever written. Would I take anyone trying to read it cold seriously? Nope. More importantly, is it worth seeking guidance through it to understand it as a book? Also nope. Not its purpose. Same with PoE. Not worth it as a game. Just not. Brilliant for its own sake now. So-called PoE 2 has to address this and it will. And some of the changes are going to piss off the local PoE scholars. Too bad. Ivory towers suck -- they don't protect their occupants from pop culture and the mainstream; they only delay the inevitable penetration and deliver to the occupants a palatable form of it. Trash is still trash. Ulysses is high art about a dude wandering Dublin and frigging over crippled girls written by a guy who LOVED to smell his wife's farts. It is what it is.

PoE is dying but what isn't? The trick isn't to not die; the trick is to die as slowly as possible. And PoE is doing just fine there. Just don't be surprised when you see it in the "literature" section even IF it's a bestseller. It is an elitist's game now. Esoteric and rewarding for those dwelling in its own version of the tower. Exiles should embrace that and be thankful it exists at all.


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I am neutral on mobile gacha games. A few of my preferred IPs have very successful gacha games into which I have put an unhealthy amount of cash over the years but my forebears were big into racehorses and my niece and nephews are inheriting an Australia with an unprecedented digital gambling problem so I figure I am just embracing my culture in my own weeb way.

I already told Diabloski what I thought of DI but in brief: treat it like a well made little jaunt through D2's aftermath and resist any desire to care about your character and a Diablo fan should get a few hours of fun out of it. It was nice to hear Cain again. To see what Xul and Charsi and Akara and even whatserface guarding the Cold Plains are up to. Then once the endgame loop presents itself delete the game and don't give it a second thought. Not bad for free. Or rather, free if you can show even a modicum of willpower. DI is not the ARPG anyone should play regularly but its surprisingly well made hook is worth the time.

Please note I said "Diablo fan". Exiles who came late to the party and never played D2 ad nauseum because its all we had need not apply and frankly their opinion on it is of no value because, as I said, the worst thing you can do with DI is treat it like an ARPG.

Otoh one might argue the same of PoE.

Lol

hoho Diabloski.

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鬼殺し wrote:

I already told Diabloski what I thought of DI but in brief:

Ha! Well played. And thanks for the summary btw. I may actually give it a F2P whirl. I doubt highly that I would put any money in it.

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PoE has the depth and the demand of a JJ novel but not the reward.

This is so true. What do you get with advanced PoE knowledge? You can clear the campaign a few hours earlier, get a head start on maps each league launch, gather some wealth faster, and then... burn out of the league just as fast. Sure some drive for 40/40 or some do it for a living, but that represents like .1% of players. They used to given a percentage breakdown of the the players that achieved specific challenge benchmarks, but they don't do that anymore. I know why. The narrative is brutal.