why PoE is dying

I kinda exaggerated. PoE has nowhere near the depth of a JJ novel. It's more like The House of Leaves. Or, less generously, A Confederacy of Dunces.

What it DOES have over any novel is permutation. To me it'd be like studying for the final exam for the same course every semester. Sure, you'd get hella good at that one course and its different exams but...what else? Isn't the whole point of an exam to prove your competence and then move onto something else unlocked by that?

Ulysses were it PoE: hey so I finally figured out your book, Mr Joyce...wait, those pages weren't there before! And why is this section now in Spanish?

...man, that fartloving troll would. He so would.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

This is so true. What do you get with advanced PoE knowledge?

You get more than you're describing. With advenced PoE knowledge, you get to create the builds you want, centered around the skill you like - and the knowhow to acquire the items/funds to make all of that a success. No matter if you like a somewhat unbalanced playground/sandbox where every possibility isn't necessarily predetermined by the developers (PoE), or you like way less, more balanced possibilities, all of them "known" and predetermined(Diablo); options and player choice are always good elements in a game.

And regarding DI; I find it fitting that when describing/critiquing it, the only elements highlighted, are story elements connected to the other games (using the Diablo IP), while not a single mechanical/gameplay element is being highlighted as somewhat positive.

"

Phrazz wrote:

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

This is so true. What do you get with advanced PoE knowledge?

You get more than you're describing. With advenced PoE knowledge, you get to create the builds you want, centered around the skill you like - and the knowhow to acquire the items/funds to make all of that a success. No matter if you like a somewhat unbalanced playground/sandbox where every possibility isn't necessarily predetermined by the developers (PoE), or you like way less, more balanced possibilities, all of them "known" and predetermined(Diablo); options and player choice are always good elements in a game.

OK sure. But in general that is not the compliment you think it is. All you are doing is highlighting how inaccessible PoE is, mostly due to how complex and convoluted the systems are.

Obviously it works for some people, but let's not also get confused about PoE. It's still a niche game. And let's not also get too carried away about builds. Granted the devs don't seem to fully understand every mechanical interaction possible, but to say that many items and mechanics are not desgined by the developers with predetermined outcomes in mind is quite the stretch, if not disengenous.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

but to say that many items and mechanics are not desgined by the developers with predetermined outcomes in mind is quite the stretch, if not disengenous.

Of course they are designed with (certain) predetermined outcomes "in mind". They're just not designed around every possible outcome, because that is more or less impossible at this stage. I wouldn't call it "disengenous". Hell, claiming it's disengenous is probably more disengenous.

And I know all of this isn't purely "compliments". But it's all about the kind of game you want. I'll take the 'build freedom' of PoE, even though it's gated beind knowledge, investment and time, rather than to follow a predetermined path with very limited options in other ARPGs.

An example: How many real options do you have in D4, making a ranged (bow) build? In my opinion, you are gated behind ONE class (or half a class?), and there's onlye ONE path through the skill tree, choosing between a handful of skills balanced around a cooldown.

There's nothing wrong with that, and by all means: It's WAY easier to balance. Hell, it would probably be a crime to not be able to balance it. I've played many games where you're severly limited in options and player choice, and games like that CAN be good. But that isn't a pure "compliment" either, especially when it comes to player choice, customization and freedom.

"

Phrazz wrote:

An example: How many real options do you have in D4, making a ranged (bow) build? In my opinion, you are gated behind ONE class (or half a class?), and there's onlye ONE path through the skill tree, choosing between a handful of skills balanced around a cooldown.

There's nothing wrong with that, and by all means: It's WAY easier to balance. Hell, it would probably be a crime to not be able to balance it. I've played many games where you're severly limited in options and player choice, and games like that CAN be good. But that isn't a pure "compliment" either, especially when it comes to player choice, customization and freedom.

Well thats the main difference in PoE with it's lack of identity. Which isn't bad or good, its just fundamental to how the game works. In D4 you pick a class, in PoE you pick a skill. Like you choose RF or Tornado Shot, and then you pick a couple of character passive trees to support that. I suppose that's individual preference. I much prefer the Diablo class type system and similar ascendancy specializations in PoE (I'm glad they are doing more of that actually). I think too generic and flexible isnt always best.

I've often said build diversity in D3 was really under-sold. You had 6 classes and at least 6 full sets each, plus LoN / LoD sets and combining of different total set bonuses with RoRG. All told you got like 60-70+ really solid, different experience, legitimate builds. That's enough for me personally. I haven't even played 70 different PoE builds in 10 years. (But you could have of course)

There definitely is this feeling that you are playing what the devs designed for you in D3 and some in D4. But I think PoE gets a pass on that sometimes because weird shit happens league to league balance wise as things swing wildly. Hell this league in crucible you had SST, Totem Explodes, and projectile build shenanigans because of a single anoint or crucible passive tree. I'd guess GGG doesn't like any of those three in the game as is. There is definitely something to be said for consistency, which PoE lacks considerably, and yet another reason the game isnt easy to stick with.

Look here an original idea - POE is a daed Gaem!

Meanwhile in other news thousands of people are eagerly awaiting July 29 2023 so we can learn what GGG staff will be doing moving forward since POE is daed!

Glad I checked forums before I bought anther supporter pack!

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

"

Phrazz wrote:

An example: How many real options do you have in D4, making a ranged (bow) build? In my opinion, you are gated behind ONE class (or half a class?), and there's onlye ONE path through the skill tree, choosing between a handful of skills balanced around a cooldown.

There's nothing wrong with that, and by all means: It's WAY easier to balance. Hell, it would probably be a crime to not be able to balance it. I've played many games where you're severly limited in options and player choice, and games like that CAN be good. But that isn't a pure "compliment" either, especially when it comes to player choice, customization and freedom.

Well thats the main difference in PoE with it's lack of identity. Which isn't bad or good, its just fundamental to how the game works. In D4 you pick a class, in PoE you pick a skill. Like you choose RF or Tornado Shot, and then you pick a couple of character passive trees to support that. I suppose that's individual preference. I much prefer the Diablo class type system and similar ascendancy specializations in PoE (I'm glad they are doing more of that actually). I think too generic and flexible isnt always best.

I've often said build diversity in D3 was really under-sold. You had 6 classes and at least 6 full sets each, plus LoN / LoD sets and combining of different total set bonuses with RoRG. All told you got like 60-70+ really solid, different experience, legitimate builds. That's enough for me personally. I haven't even played 70 different PoE builds in 10 years. (But you could have of course)

There definitely is this feeling that you are playing what the devs designed for you in D3 and some in D4. But I think PoE gets a pass on that sometimes because weird shit happens league to league balance wise as things swing wildly. Hell this league in crucible you had SST, Totem Explodes, and projectile build shenanigans because of a single anoint or crucible passive tree. I'd guess GGG doesn't like any of those three in the game as is. There is definitely something to be said for consistency, which PoE lacks considerably, and yet another reason the game isnt easy to stick with.

I prefer a "set" class system in many games. In ARGPs? I very much like the feeling of being thrown in a pool of possibilities: Here, have an overwhelming amount of choices, do what you want. It may not work, but you'll learn, progress and overcome. When "all" possible choices/paths are carefully planned out by the developers, I feel a lot of the player choice is gone.

In my eyes, D3 had no builds at all, at least not what I think of when I think "builds" in an ARPG, comming from D1 and D2. I know that items and sets gave you options that some players call "builds", but that doesn't really fit my ARPG definition with choices as you go, passive trees/skill trees and so on. Please note that I said "in my eyes" here.

I actually like more ascendancies too. At least the idea of it, to really specialize your build. But I do think they need to keep some of the questions; what ascendancy is best for me? And not make one clear-cut "best" choice for every build.

"

bobpoexa wrote:

This will be the future for PoE: 98% of new players will not stay, veteran player numbers dwindle league after league.

Can´t believe this made it to 13 pages. When do you people understand: Not Diablo 3, Not diablo 4, not diablo resurrected, not Diablo Immortal, not Wolcen, not Last Epoch, not Last Dawn, not any other thing you mentioned killed PoE and this argument is in the face of the highest player numbers ever totally ridiculous. "Poe will die because..."-posts should be banned because of spam at that point.

"

Vennto wrote:

"

bobpoexa wrote:

This will be the future for PoE: 98% of new players will not stay, veteran player numbers dwindle league after league.

Can´t believe this made it to 13 pages. When do you people understand: Not Diablo 3, Not diablo 4, not diablo resurrected, not Diablo Immortal, not Wolcen, not Last Epoch, not Last Dawn, not any other thing you mentioned killed PoE and this argument is in the face of the highest player numbers ever totally ridiculous. "Poe will die because..."-posts should be banned because of spam at that point.

What about Lost Ark? :^)
All that game shared with PoE was the camera angle.


But yeah, we will probably have 1 or 2 more threads like this one when D4 launches with people commenting how much better D4 is even though that game has an entirely different target audience, unintended animation canceling and CD bypassing, an insane amount of wide-screen exploits and plenty of other busted stuff that can't be fixed quickly.

It's going to be a fun dumpster fire to watch from afar.

D3 had *insane* levels of character diversity in its original proposed form -- skill runes were loot and had several tiers of potency each. Early observers of the game promised noted this meant literally millions of possible builds even without extensive leveling. Keep in mind that proposed version of D3 was in the wind when PoE was still in very early closed beta and getting a key to be in it was extremely difficult (unless you could go to the then-unknown GGG office and beg for one).

The *only* reason I even found PoE was Blizzard deciding their proposed system was too difficult to manage and allocated skill modifiers to level thresholds instead. So of course when I found an indie game doing exactly what D3 suddenly wasn't I threw my everything at it.

I still enjoyed the D3 closed beta but purely out of curiosity.

PoE gave me years of what that original D3 teased and my fellow Exiles, that was more than enough.

Unlike D3, DIV is so far delivering on its promise for something new in the genre. Anyone playing it for build diversity is settling for less than second best -- PoE is still the goods there, even if YMMV based on metagaming, trade concerns and whatever else. But where every other ARPG has opted either for narrow and deep or wide and shallow, DIV has, based on the first act, achieved a balance of fairly wide and fairly deep. Most importantly, it has done it with an ethos that its tagline embodies in what has to be a very deliberate stab at PoE's exclusivity: "Hell Welcomes All". The sheer amount of accessibility and that trademark "pick up and play" polish even in the game's demo was staggering.

And obviously of little to no interest to an entrenched, conditioned Exile.

Needless to say based on player figures so far, Blizzard are not really aiming for those who identify as such. Hell welcomes all, but that's no guarantee it'll have much to offer all comers.

But in the grand scheme of the ARPG genre, of which I have been a casual veteran for over 20 years now, DIV is as much an evolution as PoE was, trading in scope and narrative where PoE was all about exploding build potential, and I think only tribalism or justifiable dislike for the company making it could blind an ARPG devotee to this fact.