How is this game playable in melee?

Ah nevermind i feel stupid for even replying

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Baharoth15 wrote:

I am not twisting anything. We have a debate about melee in Poe where there is a clear definition of what melee is, it even has its own tag. And yet every single time i or any one else argues against the melee is shit myth i have to deal with people dismissing arguements because one or two of their selfmade/imported rules from other games got compromised along the way. Boneshatter is dismissed as being an exception. LS is dismissed as being a spell. Using gen cry is lol summoner. Using totems obviously is heresy cuz not melee see above. Stat stacking is dismissed cuz wrong scaling and so on.

Now i might even be fine with all that if people were at least conseqent but they arent. Statstacking caster? Fair game. Using totems/mines/traps for proxy damage? Fair game. Triggering stuff with coc? Fair game.

This whole discussion is so warped with subjective definitions from its very core its laughable. If the definition of "caster" is anything goes while the definition of melee is subjected to millions of restrictions then its no real surprise if spells end up looking better.

Personally i think GGG should just remove the melee tag. Would resolve 99% of these useless debates.

Also that Poe ninja paragraph of yours is just... like LS was top of the meta for the last year. Before 3.15 we had slams dominating gauntlets for like 2 years before that there was cyclone meta and before that we had old MS and statsticks etc. I wonder what game you are even talking about when i read that.

The problem i see with totems is that if your build needs to use red gems therefor strength (so like 90% of melee build) you automatically need to reserve 3 sockets for your totems. Otherwise you lose 1/2 of you damage. That you need to maintain and re-apply each time you move or the boss move.

Players want to play melee with other options than having totems in almost all their build.

For me the biggest problem with melee is exactly the fact that you almost always need red gems in 3/4 of you gem slots.

There is too much emphasis on physical damage + conversion (because there's so few good elemental damage focused weapons).

"melee suck" because there is limited variety. All builds are pigeonholed in the same few mechanics.

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Igolac wrote:

The problem i see with totems is that if your build needs to use red gems therefor strength (so like 90% of melee build) you automatically need to reserve 3 sockets for your totems. Otherwise you lose 1/2 of you damage. That you need to maintain and re-apply each time you move or the boss move.

The amount of buttons to press that need pressing is the main issue for me with melee. I'm already pianoing flasks, so the last thing I want is to have to piano buffs on top of that.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Ah nevermind i feel stupid for even replying

I guess we have to define what the vast majority of people call melee, since some people want to argue that a type of damage makes it also an arch type, which it does not. It's so widely excepted that it's defined.

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Melee (video games)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The term melee has been adopted and popularized in wargaming, table top, and video games to encompass all forms of close combat. This can include any combat that involves directly striking an opponent at ranges generally less than a metre, especially using martial arts or melee weapons. This term is especially used in comparison to other strategies, such as ranged combat or magic (where applicable) when the game offers multiple methods of combat.

This is the "melee" definition that you are arguing against because you're arguing a "type of damage" and everyone else is talking about the above definition, AKA the melee arch type.


Nearly all melee "arch type" require a totem of some sort, and the totem is the melee, a type of damage, just because a totem might do melee damage does not mean it's you that's doing that damage, and we all know. So type of damage may be melee, but it's not a melee skill. If GGG put the "melee" tag on Righteous Fire skill gem are you going to then argue it's melee? Well, I hope not, this is why LS and GC is not considered melee, because they are talking about the melee arch type.


Is this debate about what melee is and is not though? Not for the vast majority of us. The issue is melee vs caster balance. Can any melee kill things and complete the game in most regards? Yes, but in PoE if you throw enough currency at anything you can eventually kill anything. So that is not a reasonable metric for being viable. Entry level for most melee builds is 15 Divines.

You can generally do anything a melee can do with 15 divines on a caster with only 3 Divines, and sometimes with just 1 divine.


This is generally true for everything regarding melee vs caster. What ever you can do with a melee arch type you can do with a caster 3 times better, cheaper, 3 less buttons required, and with 3 times less skill required.

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Igolac wrote:

The problem i see with totems is that if your build needs to use red gems therefor strength (so like 90% of melee build) you automatically need to reserve 3 sockets for your totems. Otherwise you lose 1/2 of you damage. That you need to maintain and re-apply each time you move or the boss move.

Players want to play melee with other options than having totems in almost all their build.

For me the biggest problem with melee is exactly the fact that you almost always need red gems in 3/4 of you gem slots.

There is too much emphasis on physical damage + conversion (because there's so few good elemental damage focused weapons).

"melee suck" because there is limited variety. All builds are pigeonholed in the same few mechanics.

Well, melee is most of the time required to spec into a weapon type when casters do not. What melee needs is to be able to only worry about the damage type and not the weapon type.

Not only do you need 3 gems for totems but you also need 2-4 gems reserved for Warcrys. Then you have to watch and keep track of Exerts.

Most people want to use red gems, because they are melee. But we want to use Melee support gems not totem support gems. One of the biggest issues IMO is that there are 8 types of "melee" skill gems are all just a different form of slam. Could you imagine if we had 8 different kinds of Fireball? And damn near every one uses the exact same support gems. The animation is all the same it's just the slam effect that looks different. Boneshatter is the only one IMO that I consider different enough, but it's still a slam.

Earthbreaker is a slam support, Boneshatter is a slam, and nearly every other new melee type of skill is total trash tier and no one even remembers they exist if they do at all.

There are 20 more green active skill gems than red, and there are 41 more blue active skill gems than red. While casters have AoE's that can off screen and move at blazing speeds if Melee can do the same for anywhere near the same price point it's nerfed into the ground. Vaal Ground slam lasted for one league before it was nerfed and it required set up to make it work. A miner or trapper can throw out 15 traps and do the exact same thing and no nerf. People love melee, but nearly every other game does it better.

It's absurd how neglected and left in 2014 the melee arch type has been. While casters get amazing new skills melee gets another slam, or another double strike. Diablo is a very old game and felt far more fair than PoE feels.

Man, I can't believe what I am reading.

Melee forced to go physical? Actually elemental damage claws used to be the prime melee build. And now you have buffed voidforge.

You have to use totems? Just once at the boss, wtf else you need them for?

Pressing buttons? Sure, if you enjoy yelling. I spend most of my time holding a single button down as a melee.

15 divines to make a melee build viable? There is always an extremely cheap melee build you can start with. It used to be Boneshatter and from what I see at the beginning of the league - it still is. Over 1 million DPS with Boneshatter on day 1.

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Valkaneer wrote:

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

Ah nevermind i feel stupid for even replying

I guess we have to define what the vast majority of people call melee, since some people want to argue that a type of damage makes it also an arch type, which it does not. It's so widely excepted that it's defined.

"

Melee (video games)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The term melee has been adopted and popularized in wargaming, table top, and video games to encompass all forms of close combat. This can include any combat that involves directly striking an opponent at ranges generally less than a metre, especially using martial arts or melee weapons. This term is especially used in comparison to other strategies, such as ranged combat or magic (where applicable) when the game offers multiple methods of combat.

This is the "melee" definition that you are arguing against because you're arguing a "type of damage" and everyone else is talking about the above definition, AKA the melee arch type.


Nearly all melee "arch type" require a totem of some sort, and the totem is the melee, a type of damage, just because a totem might do melee damage does not mean it's you that's doing that damage, and we all know. So type of damage may be melee, but it's not a melee skill. If GGG put the "melee" tag on Righteous Fire skill gem are you going to then argue it's melee? Well, I hope not, this is why LS and GC is not considered melee, because they are talking about the melee arch type.


Is this debate about what melee is and is not though? Not for the vast majority of us. The issue is melee vs caster balance. Can any melee kill things and complete the game in most regards? Yes, but in PoE if you throw enough currency at anything you can eventually kill anything. So that is not a reasonable metric for being viable. Entry level for most melee builds is 15 Divines.

You can generally do anything a melee can do with 15 divines on a caster with only 3 Divines, and sometimes with just 1 divine.


This is generally true for everything regarding melee vs caster. What ever you can do with a melee arch type you can do with a caster 3 times better, cheaper, 3 less buttons required, and with 3 times less skill required.

You are missing my point. I am well aware that most of the people here discuss a melee archetype that doesnt actually exist in poe born from whatever definition you found on the net that caught your fancy. My point is that its idiotic to do that. Different games have different frameworks and rules using the rules and frameworks from one game and forcing them onto another is pointless. Its like disputing a foulplay in a basketball match using the foulplay definition from Rugby..

If your idea of melee is hit the enemy with a sword from 1 meter distance then thats on you but it has no relevance for poe and its balance. Given how poe works an archetype like that is never going to be relevant, it lacks in damage projection way to much to keep up in a game that requires the ability to annihilate dozens of enemies in an instant. If you want melee in poe you need to adjust it to fit in. Thats not exclusive to poe but its the same with other games. D2, D3, LE or since the Wiki mentioned tabletop warhammer 40k, your rigid melee definition is going to fall flat in all of them. There may be exceptions like ww in diablo who somewhat fit in but even in those games most melee builds have aspects to them that dont fit your definition.

As for that melee needs 15 divines to be viable, you might want to read my first post on page 3. I did t16 maps on a 50c strike skill build. I can make you a 2 mio dps build that kills pinnacle bosses for less than 1 divine. 15 divines is what you need for ubers.

Nvm

I still play melee ("melee" like frostblades), I think it's fine, I get my maps played and my stuff done and I don't care if I would have an easier time with spells.

But for theoretical balance reasons...

1) I liked it back in the old days, when melee got sustain "for free" (like a leech affix on gloves).
Casters had all the other advantages, but they had to actually worry about both health and mana recovery. And that wasn't for free, it cost gem links, auras etc.
GGG gave up on that by introducing all kinds of new mechanics and support gems over the years.

2) I generally like the concept that as melee, you rely on your weapon, vs spells on their level.
This means you can get ahead of the curve during leveling (you have a good rare/unique weapon, while the caster still has lvl 8 spell gems), and it also means that you have a higher ceiling in late game (with crazy good gear).
With easier access to +gem levels, GGG gave up on that, too.
It's probably still true in the 100+ divines department, but that's not really accessible for most players. I'll have a hard time finding a weapon that deals more damage than a bunch of seismic traps.

3) And, of course, melee should be more tanky. It kind of is in most situations, but there are so many things in lategame PoE that just kill you, so it kind of is not.

Those 3 issues I would address if I were in the GGG balance department. But as I wrote above, imho melee is fine, as long as you don't insist on playing "true melee single target".

There are definitely some aspects which can be improved. For example, Sanctum's rotating flame, or whatever it is called, room. It is incredibly annoying as a melee because you are either hit by the trap or by the spawned mobs. A ranged/spell build can just easily destroy the mobs while keeping away from the flames.