How is this game playable in melee?

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

I've leaguestarted melee this league. It was essentially my first league start since Bestiary since i am mostly a standard player.

Went for a 2 handed elemental based slayer build aiming for Voidforge as my endgame weapon. Started with double strike but switched to frost blades during yellow maps because my new weapon had low added cold and i compensated for that with conversion. Could have switched back later but didn't bother.

Thank you for this. Out of curiosity, does this include Sanctum?

I had more questions but I've just looked at your character setup and can see how it ticks. Slayers are great. PS LOL Double Strike on the wand -- as good a place to store it as any.

Yes, this obviously included Sanctums and yes i fully cleared them. Probably not with the same successrate as i could have done with a pure proxy damage build but decent enough for me at least. Sanctum is more about damage than about range. Most of the guardians are actually easier to deal with at close range and the one case that's admittedly a pain as melee (the blue mage with his 3 spheres) get's easily done in by dropping totems on him. Totems also block the magmar balls on floor 2 and 4 btw so they felt more beneficial than ever before this time thanks to the league mechanic.

And yes, slayers are great but i could do the same with pretty much any marauder/duelist ascendancy maybe outside of Gladiator.

Thank you again. I hope more people who feel that melee in this league is impossible read your account and find it useful, particularly the reliance on totems. :)

I think it was Ziz maybe that said the most important stat for dealing with bosses is suppression. It is easy to over come Armor issues for casters, all you need is Skin of the Lord and an Aegis. Suppression is built right into their tree for the most part. Melee has two very big disadvantages, technically 3 that casters don't have.

1) Problem - Melee is very dependent on a good weapon, and if the build does not have access to good a unique weapon then the cost is going to be 10 divine for ok weapon, and 20-50 easy for a good weapon. Also, melee has to take weapon specific nodes and damage specific nodes, while casters only to take damage specific nodes. This saves casters 10-20 points that melee normally is required to spend.

Most caster weapons cost less than 1 divine for an ok wand and maybe 10 for a good wand or staff. The vast majority of casters use either a unique staff or wand, but damage types are not effected by what kind of wand they are using, unlike melee it very much affects what type of damage you do. When was the last time you saw a caster to spec into wand damage?

Fix- The melee skill tree should be about picking a type of damage, the weapon should not matter. Melee should be specing based on what kind of damage we want to do just like a caster. While saving melee skill points it may also balance weapon types and bring many more cost affordable uniques into play for melee


2)Problem - Even though melee should be the tanky class the only thing we are tanky at is physical damage. Spell suppression is very hard and expensive to get for melee. while being the most important defensive stat in the game for boss defenses.

Fix- Limit the amount of suppression available to the right side of the tree or allow more built in spell suppression passives on the right side of the tree. It is far to easy for the right side of the tree to get high armor values without having to spec into Armor nodes.

3)Problem - Melee has way to many buttons to press compared to casters. The mental gymnastics to pay attention to all the buff timers, stack counts, exerts, and totems is crazy. Not only does melee have socket pressure but we also have button pressure and are heavily reliant on totems. This has much to do with a very low amount of viable skills outside of Boneshatter/slam attacks.

Fix- Turn some of the Warcrys and Totems into Ancestry large passives permanent buffs or Keystones on the skill tree. This would cut down on button bloat and help reduce how many buffs you have to pay attention to.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Thank you again. I hope more people who feel that melee in this league is impossible read your account and find it useful, particularly the reliance on totems. :)

You call it reliance, but is it really that? I am playing a melee build, so i do about 99,9% of the content using my melee skill. That melee skill happens to get ~50% more damage from investing 3 gemslots for totems, since that's pretty hard to beat (and impossible to replicate for casters btw) i am running those totems anyway. Now if i run into that 0,1% of content where it's actually more convenient to just drop the totems on it and let them do the talking is that reliance? Or just efficiently using what you have?

Why is it that people always start limiting themselves when talking about melee? Can't have stat stacking for damage, can't use totems, can't have more than 5 weapon range or any AOE, can't be paradoxica/voidforge/savior whatever, can't be boneshatter/lightning strike. And when talking about content its obviously ubers, not like any of the whiners here has ever beaten them with a caster. To me it really looks like all of the whiners here woke up one morning with a divine revelation from Chris telling them that melee sucks and like the vicious believers they are they now go and propagate the word everywhere while declaring anything that might contradict that view by declaring "it's not really melee".

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Thank you again. I hope more people who feel that melee in this league is impossible read your account and find it useful, particularly the reliance on totems. :)

You call it reliance, but is it really that? I am playing a melee build, so i do about 99,9% of the content using my melee skill. That melee skill happens to get ~50% more damage from investing 3 gemslots for totems, since that's pretty hard to beat (and impossible to replicate for casters btw) i am running those totems anyway. Now if i run into that 0,1% of content where it's actually more convenient to just drop the totems on it and let them do the talking is that reliance? Or just efficiently using what you have?

Why is it that people always start limiting themselves when talking about melee? Can't have stat stacking for damage, can't use totems, can't have more than 5 weapon range or any AOE, can't be paradoxica/voidforge/savior whatever, can't be boneshatter/lightning strike. And when talking about content its obviously ubers, not like any of the whiners here has ever beaten them with a caster. To me it really looks like all of the whiners here woke up one morning with a divine revelation from Chris telling them that melee sucks and like the vicious believers they are they now go and propagate the word everywhere while declaring anything that might contradict that view by declaring "it's not really melee".

Eh, if you can do it without them, well and good. If all they do is expedite.

Otherwise yeah, I'd call it reliance. You say you're doing it for efficiency, and I choose to believe you.

But I have seen plenty of people say 'melee is fine', and then when you dig at their character a bit, what they're really doing is playing ranged with a huge set of non-melee variables supporting their build.

And while I wouldn't dismiss any given weapon as 'melee' if it is used as a melee weapon, I do draw some pretty strong lines between what most games consider 'melee' and what GGG consider 'melee'. Now if you're content with their definition, that's excellent. Truly you have found Your Game and Your Devs. But a lot of people are also within their rights to be confused and even annoyed at this disparity, because if most other games define melee as something much more intimate and close-up, then it seems that GGG is being disingenuous calling a mid ranged projectile style attack (such as Lacerate or Cascade) 'melee'.

None of this really pertains to the point here: you've done it with Double Strike, which is about as melee as melee gets in PoE.

You really do mount an excellent counterargument to the belief that melee is not viable as a league starter and a main character. I'm somewhat curious why you seem to be the only one, but that's not really for either of us to say. Only others.

I am the only one because most players dont have the knowledge/experience to make this work and most of those that do wont bother argueing here because its the epitome of pointless to try and fill glasses that are already full. Even i only post when i am bored. Making melee work is harder than ranged this is a fact. Being ranged allows you to compensate for build flaws to quite a degree. It compensates for lack of damage by just kiting around until shit dies. It compensates for shitty defense in the same way. If you mess up movement there is a bigger chance of getting away with it at a distance and so on. If you know your stuff then none of that is of any concern but thats just if.

Regarding your idea of melee, i wont deny that gggs idea of melee is weird but using definitions and concepts from other games as your foundation to discuss balance in poe is just as weird and imo utterly pointless so excuse me if i dont want to partake in that.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Why is it that people always start limiting themselves when talking about melee? Can't have stat stacking for damage, can't use totems, can't have more than 5 weapon range or any AOE, can't be paradoxica/voidforge/savior whatever, can't be boneshatter/lightning strike. And when talking about content its obviously ubers, not like any of the whiners here has ever beaten them with a caster. To me it really looks like all of the whiners here woke up one morning with a divine revelation from Chris telling them that melee sucks and like the vicious believers they are they now go and propagate the word everywhere while declaring anything that might contradict that view by declaring "it's not really melee".

Why is that that some people have to twist everything?

I think I've read more or less every melee thread there is - and participated in most, and I haven't seen anyone "limiting themselves", and I've absolutely not seen anyone saying melee "can't be Boneshatter" or whatever. This is just a very wrong interpretation, probably to make some kind of point. Asking questions about the "melee" part of Lightning Strike is only natural, as you can (could?) fill the whole screen with projectiles without even melee-hitting an enemy.

What I HAVE seen, though, is people asking question about melee - and how GGG have decided how the scaling of melee should work. Why have they decided that speccing into totem nodes is the most effective route? Why is going attribute stacking so powerful, while scaling your weapon through "traditional means" so underpowered compared to other builds? Why is stacking "added physical damage" on your gear and scaling it through a unique weapon so much better than other ways of scaling?

All these question SHOULD be asked. Why? Because before 3.15 you COULD scale A LOT of melee builds through "traditional means", by having a good weapon. It goes without saying that the removal of MORE damage on support gems hurt melee more than non-weapon scaling builds. All of these "new requirements" only serves as hurdles, funnels and detours for an archetype that COULD be diverse and beautiful.

The fact that PoE Ninja - year after year - shows a pretty clear picture when it comes to META builds and power, can't be ignored. That 'most' streamers and top players more or less ignore melee builds when they are aiming for the toughest content has more or less been accepted as the norm by most players. If YOUR goals for a league was farming 100% deli maps, wave 30 sims, ubers or whatever, is "melee" the first thing that comes to mind? All of this does NOT come from preferences alone.

Only hyperbolers are saying that melee is impossible. Everyone with a hint of game knowledge knows that you CAN do 'most' things in the game with 'most' melee skills, if you have the gear and the know-how. That fact does NOT, in any way, shape or form, make melee "balanced" in the grand scheme of things. In a game with economy, races, PvEP elements and so on, there needs to be some sort of overall balance between the different skills. "You CAN beat everything in the game with Vigilant Strike" isn't cutting it, when you can do it 746 times cheaper, safer and faster with SRS.

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Phrazz wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Why is it that people always start limiting themselves when talking about melee? Can't have stat stacking for damage, can't use totems, can't have more than 5 weapon range or any AOE, can't be paradoxica/voidforge/savior whatever, can't be boneshatter/lightning strike. And when talking about content its obviously ubers, not like any of the whiners here has ever beaten them with a caster. To me it really looks like all of the whiners here woke up one morning with a divine revelation from Chris telling them that melee sucks and like the vicious believers they are they now go and propagate the word everywhere while declaring anything that might contradict that view by declaring "it's not really melee".

Why is that that some people have to twist everything?

I think I've read more or less every melee thread there is - and participated in most, and I haven't seen anyone "limiting themselves", and I've absolutely not seen anyone saying melee "can't be Boneshatter" or whatever. This is just a very wrong interpretation, probably to make some kind of point. Asking questions about the "melee" part of Lightning Strike is only natural, as you can (could?) fill the whole screen with projectiles without even melee-hitting an enemy.

What I HAVE seen, though, is people asking question about melee - and how GGG have decided how the scaling of melee should work. Why have they decided that speccing into totem nodes is the most effective route? Why is going attribute stacking so powerful, while scaling your weapon through "traditional means" so underpowered compared to other builds? Why is stacking "added physical damage" on your gear and scaling it through a unique weapon so much better than other ways of scaling?

All these question SHOULD be asked. Why? Because before 3.15 you COULD scale A LOT of melee builds through "traditional means", by having a good weapon. It goes without saying that the removal of MORE damage on support gems hurt melee more than non-weapon scaling builds.

The fact that PoE Ninja - year after year - shows a pretty clear picture when it comes to META builds and power, can't be ignored. That 'most' streamers and top players more or less ignore melee builds when they are aiming for the toughest content has more or less been accepted as the norm by most players. If YOUR goals for a league was farming 100% deli maps, wave 30 sims, ubers or whatever, is "melee" the first thing that comes to mind? All of this does NOT come from preferences alone.

Only hyperbolers are saying that melee is impossible. Everyone with a hint of game knowledge knows that you CAN do 'most' things in the game with 'most' melee skills, if you have the gear and the know-how. That fact does NOT, in any way, shape or form, make melee "balanced" in the grand scheme of things. In a game with economy, races, PvEP elements and so on, there needs to be some sort of overall balance between the different skills. "You CAN beat everything in the game with Vigilant Strike" isn't cutting it, when you can do it 746 times cheaper, safer and faster with SRS.

I am not twisting anything. We have a debate about melee in Poe where there is a clear definition of what melee is, it even has its own tag. And yet every single time i or any one else argues against the melee is shit myth i have to deal with people dismissing arguements because one or two of their selfmade/imported rules from other games got compromised along the way. Boneshatter is dismissed as being an exception. LS is dismissed as being a spell. Using gen cry is lol summoner. Using totems obviously is heresy cuz not melee see above. Stat stacking is dismissed cuz wrong scaling and so on.

Now i might even be fine with all that if people were at least conseqent but they arent. Statstacking caster? Fair game. Using totems/mines/traps for proxy damage? Fair game. Triggering stuff with coc? Fair game.

This whole discussion is so warped with subjective definitions from its very core its laughable. If the definition of "caster" is anything goes while the definition of melee is subjected to millions of restrictions then its no real surprise if spells end up looking better.

Personally i think GGG should just remove the melee tag. Would resolve 99% of these useless debates.

Also that Poe ninja paragraph of yours is just... like LS was top of the meta for the last year. Before 3.15 we had slams dominating gauntlets for like 2 years before that there was cyclone meta and before that we had old MS and statsticks etc. I wonder what game you are even talking about when i read that.

Boneshatter basically ........ It is playable to a certain extent, and with enough investment some skils might work well. Sadly skill balance is absolutely awful right now.

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I am not twisting anything. We have a debate about melee in Poe where there is a clear definition of what melee is, it even has its own tag. And yet every single time i or any one else argues against the melee is shit myth i have to deal with people dismissing arguements because one or two of their selfmade/imported rules from other games got compromised along the way. Boneshatter is dismissed as being an exception. LS is dismissed as being a spell. Using gen cry is lol summoner. Using totems obviously is heresy cuz not melee see above. Stat stacking is dismissed cuz wrong scaling and so on.

Now i might even be fine with all that if people were at least conseqent but they arent. Statstacking caster? Fair game. Using totems/mines/traps for proxy damage? Fair game. Triggering stuff with coc? Fair game.

This whole discussion is so warped with subjective definitions from its very core its laughable. If the definition of "caster" is anything goes while the definition of melee is subjected to millions of restrictions then its no real surprise if spells end up looking better.

Personally i think GGG should just remove the melee tag. Would resolve 99% of these useless debates.

Also that Poe ninja paragraph of yours is just... like LS was top of the meta for the last year. Before 3.15 we had slams dominating gauntlets for like 2 years before that there was cyclone meta and before that we had old MS and statsticks etc. I wonder what game you are even talking about when i read that.

The debate about what Melee is, was always kind of a silly one because it dates back to before there was even General's Cry and Totems (Ancestral Warchief/Protector was a thing for a long time but those were more or less their own skills). The debate goes back far enough to when Cleave could be used in shorter leveling races. Even Cleave wasn't safe from people mocking Melee skills for having AoE on them even though there is no reason they shouldn't. It was this weird fascination of applying real world logic to a game even though PoE leans closer to Melee characters being like Hulk or Thor, very super heroic characters that use their strength for great fantastical feats, than a historically accurate take on melee warfare.

I think General's Cry and Earthbreaker just add the whole self-cast vs. having something else cast (and minions with melee attacks) to the debate, but for the most part the debate has been about "self-cast" (for lack of better word, I know it's not casting) Melee skills primarily. Basically, if a Melee skill is good, it was generally considered unacceptable by the community, and never really changed despite the game being a decade old.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

This whole discussion is so warped with subjective definitions from its very core its laughable. If the definition of "caster" is anything goes while the definition of melee is subjected to millions of restrictions then its no real surprise if spells end up looking better.

Personally i think GGG should just remove the melee tag. Would resolve 99% of these useless debates.

Also that Poe ninja paragraph of yours is just... like LS was top of the meta for the last year. Before 3.15 we had slams dominating gauntlets for like 2 years before that there was cyclone meta and before that we had old MS and statsticks etc. I wonder what game you are even talking about when i read that.

In fairness, the lack of identity for melee in PoE, and how it performs and feels in general is on GGG, not the players.

How strike based combat feels in LA or Diablo 3 for example is vastly different, and imo, far better. The D4 melee skills are amazing too, and the comparisons in combat are going to be stark.

The difference in PoE is that anyone can be anything and so identies get murky. Cyclone is a melee skill sure. Now you CoC that out with spells is it still melee? Is LS with force attack much different than a spell cast? You are not even hitting an enemy.

These are fair questions, and while yes its subjective, because hello the game experience itself is subjective, there can be little doubt that how melee is handled or feels in PoE is far different that how it feels in similar games.

Perhaps abandoning the traditional "melee skill" is the way to go, and just have physical spells skills instead. However I dont think that is the way GGG is going when they are speaking about PoE2 and new combat animations for melee. I dont have much confidence given their track record on melee, but lets see how it goes.

That said, the notion that melee is fine in PoE is laughable. If you do actually think that its either intentional trolling for the lol's, or a complete lack of understanding on how the dynamics of close combat and melee roles have worked traditionally in arpgs.