How is this game playable in melee?

Among others like Kondo's Pride and Hiltless, there are plenty of weapon choices for different builds you can get for a few chaos 1 or 2 days into the league and that can carry you all the way to tier 16 maps and your first 2 void stones with ease. Sure, that's more than +1 wands cost but it's far from being an issue.

If you want to go further from there, there is Paradoxica, The Saviour, Varunastra, Blood Seeker, Atziris Disfavour, Starforge, Voidforge etc that you can do ubers with without much trouble for a few divines.

I honestly fail to see the big deal here, the options are already there, just use them. There is zero content in this game that requires 1k+ PDPS weapons to do.

Path of Harry Potter.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Among others like Kondo's Pride and Hiltless, there are plenty of weapon choices for different builds you can get for a few chaos 1 or 2 days into the league and that can carry you all the way to tier 16 maps and your first 2 void stones with ease. Sure, that's more than +1 wands cost but it's far from being an issue.

If you want to go further from there, there is Paradoxica, The Saviour, Varunastra, Blood Seeker, Atziris Disfavour, Starforge, Voidforge etc that you can do ubers with without much trouble for a few divines.

I honestly fail to see the big deal here, the options are already there, just use them. There is zero content in this game that requires 1k+ PDPS weapons to do.

While it's great you put this much effort into your reply, it would've been more beneficial if you put that much effort into reading the thread and focusing your effort into addressing even some of the many concerns, not just the thread's title.

All of the weapons you linked are just bad, man. Bad for anything other than levelling or utility. Then there's the ones you mentioned like voidforge, etc, which can absolutely be used to fight ubers.

What's missing from your reply is the concerns related to effective DPS uptime and the additional defensive layer requirements to maintain that already limited uptime VS ranged builds. Ranged builds have higher dps uptime and have the inherent defensive bonus of (almost) never having to get into melee range - often where it's most deadly.

Spells can get away with worse weapons and bows have the insane benefits from quivers. How can a 2 handed bow justifiably have the same DPS as a two-hander though also get a quiver than can boost many stats by a significant margin. 2-handed dps but with the utility of a 1-handed's offhand slot? Yeah, ok.

TL:DR
- Yes there are many trash unique melee weapons. You linked several of them
- Yes the rarest of melee uniques can be used to play endgame content
- "I honestly fail to see the big deal here" - perhaps read some of the 17 pages of replies. Or listen to the community who've collectively complained about this for years.
- Look at PoE ninja for irrefutable proof the community isn't willing to invest in melee at anywhere near the same rate as spell/bow builds.
- Melee is one of three archetypes. Does it seem like that's the case?

"

hmcg020 wrote:

While it's great you put this much effort into your reply, it would've been more beneficial if you put that much effort into reading the thread and focusing your effort into addressing even some of the many concerns, not just the thread's title.

All of the weapons you linked are just bad, man. Bad for anything other than levelling or utility. Then there's the ones you mentioned like voidforge, etc, which can absolutely be used to fight ubers.

What's missing from your reply is the concerns related to effective DPS uptime and the additional defensive layer requirements to maintain that already limited uptime VS ranged builds. Ranged builds have higher dps uptime and have the inherent defensive bonus of (almost) never having to get into melee range - often where it's most deadly.

Spells can get away with worse weapons and bows have the insane benefits from quivers. How can a 2 handed bow justifiably have the same DPS as a two-hander though also get a quiver than can boost many stats by a significant margin. 2-handed dps but with the utility of a 1-handed's offhand slot? Yeah, ok.

TL:DR
- Yes there are many trash unique melee weapons. You linked several of them
- Yes the rarest of melee uniques can be used to play endgame content
- "I honestly fail to see the big deal here" - perhaps read some of the 17 pages of replies. Or listen to the community who've collectively complained about this for years.
- Look at PoE ninja for irrefutable proof the community isn't willing to invest in melee at anywhere near the same rate as spell/bow builds.
- Melee is one of three archetypes. Does it seem like that's the case?

Maybe you should have read the topic before coming here to attack me like that. I participated at several points before this and addressed other points as well, can't be arsed to console every newb crying in here though.

You call them trash weapons only good for leveling (like there is any problem with having weapons that are only good for leveling), yet half of those are viable enough even for top endgame content. White Wind is powerful with stuff like frostblades and another guy here on the forum did wave 30 simus using frostbreath glacial hammer. Grelwood can also carry on quite far into endgame on stuff like Moltenstrike. And while i wouldn't call it an endgame weapon due to how outclassed it is by Paradoxica, but i did have a 12 mio dps ice crash build in 3.16 that used Ahn's might. Not excactly the DPS level you need for leveling now, is it?

As for the issue with DPS uptime, it's mostly a build matter. There are some exceptions like Uber Sirus with his degen grounds but every Guardian, every Pinnacle boss and 5 out of 7 Uber Bosses can simply be face tanked for easy 70-80% dps uptime and you can still have 30+ mio dps while having that kind of defense with like 20-30 divines investment. Not to mention that the whole uptime argument falls apart entirely the moment you get enough DPS. Uber Sirus gives you a ~5 sec DPS window in his last phase before he uses any of his big moves, if you just kill him in that time the fight ends with you having 100% DPS uptime. If you are dodging mechanics in non uber content as melee you are just doing it wrong.

So what if bows have quivers? Their gems are balanced with that in mind and it's a known fact that most bow skills have horrible single target until you throw a shit ton of currency at them. Yes, they are great for clear but that's pretty much it.

As for that idiotic POE Ninja "argument". If you can't even tell the difference between viability and popularity you should really keep your mouth shut. Half of the POE ninja builds are non-functional bullshit builds that only serve to showcase DPS and get people a high rank on the ladder while most of the other half is the stuff that some popular content creator made and that's the flavour of the month. There are tons of other builds around that are extremely strong and viable, have remained unchanged for years and yet are in the 0,0x percent range because most people in the community don't even know they exist.
Besides, even if we were to say that POE Ninja is a relevant statistic, again it's not, the current top 5 builds in SC Crucible are LA, RF, CoC IS, TS and BS. That's 2 x bow 1,5 x spell and 1,5 x melee since CoC is a mix breed between caster (since it scales spell damage) and melee (only does damage at point blank range). So again the question, where the hell is the big problem here? And it's not like this is a first. Lightning Strike was #1 for almost a year, before 3.15 slams dominated every single gauntlet, in 3.07 there was Cyclone. There aren't many leagues in recent times where melee had no representation at the top. Obviously not every melee skill is top tier material but that's the same for every archetype.

TL:DR: Get a clue.

Melee can't be viable or the game would suck because too easy I suggest instead of asking for melee buffs why not just ask for a melee only league mode like ruthless that has only melee skills that way all the melee fans can be in a league by themselves and not feel like they need to compete with ranged builds.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

TL:DR: Get a clue.

As I said on the last page; I've been deep diving into melee, and spent more time than normal (for me) to really push several melee builds these last leagues, and I've come to agree more with you than I did previous.

This league? I've been spending most of my time on my Frost Blades Trickster. I've done everything except Ubers, but I actually feel they (at least some of them) are within reach. That is a very good feeling. I don't mind not being able to do them, but I very much appreciate the feeling of maybe being able to do them if I pushed a little more. And I'm sure that's what GGG wants me to feel :P

That said; we can talk about weapons all day long. And while White Wind and Frostbreath are more than capable in a lot of situations, you would need idiotically good gear to take the other weapons you posted beyond T16. Nothing wrong with that, though. But ALWAYS consider HC and defenses too when you think about balance. The possibility of surviving as a melee build (and not use 6 portals as a mechanic) should be present. And I think it's pretty dumb that spell builds have a greater potential when it comes to defenses than melee builds because of scaling - at least at the very top end (at least that's my impression).

I still feel that there's too few melee skills in the mix, and most (if not all) melee skills that can somewhat be called "popular", are mostly projectile based. Sure, we can't blame everything on balance, because mechanics also have a big say here. The game (read: The environment) is developing faster than the skills, and we haven't really seen (m)any popular melee skills added these last years. Volcanic Fissure, maybe?

Crucible took a lot of melee builds and made them good, which goes to show that a little power goes a long way. Are they OP? No. They are good, nothing more, nothing less. But what happens when they take that power away?

"

Phrazz wrote:

As I said on the last page; I've been deep diving into melee, and spent more time than normal (for me) to really push several melee builds these last leagues, and I've come to agree more with you than I did previous.

This league? I've been spending most of my time on my Frost Blades Trickster. I've done everything except Ubers, but I actually feel they (at least some of them) are within reach. That is a very good feeling. I don't mind not being able to do them, but I very much appreciate the feeling of maybe being able to do them if I pushed a little more. And I'm sure that's what GGG wants me to feel :P

That said; we can talk about weapons all day long. And while White Wind and Frostbreath are more than capable in a lot of situations, you would need idiotically good gear to take the other weapons you posted beyond T16. Nothing wrong with that, though. But ALWAYS consider HC and defenses too when you think about balance. The possibility of surviving as a melee build (and not use 6 portals as a mechanic) should be present. And I think it's pretty dumb that spell builds have a greater potential when it comes to defenses than melee builds because of scaling - at least at the very top end (at least that's my impression).

I still feel that there's too few melee skills in the mix, and most (if not all) melee skills that can somewhat be called "popular", are mostly projectile based. Sure, we can't blame everything on balance, because mechanics also have a big say here. The game (read: The environment) is developing faster than the skills, and we haven't really seen (m)any popular melee skills added these last years. Volcanic Fissure, maybe?

Crucible took a lot of melee builds and made them good, which goes to show that a little power goes a long way. Are they OP? No. They are good, nothing more, nothing less. But what happens when they take that power away?

I only listed them as cheap entry weapons to get the first 2 void stones, nothing more. Some of them have potential for more, some don't. I don't see a problem with that. You won't be doing ubers on a naked +1 wand or quilrain either.

Telling me about defenses is kinda.. you know.. i am obsessed with defense, i am way too old or stupid or both to dodge boss mechanics. I essentially play catch with shaper balls every time he uses bullet hell and yet i can do those fights because my builds are designed to compensate for that, i am like quin in that regard except that my builds do somewhat? respectable damage at the same time since it's not HC SSF. I can afk in guardian fights, against pinnacle bosses i only have to watch out for the recovery disabling debuffs and even against ubers i can face tank most of their moves. There is no issue with survivability here. Yes, there are some PF caster builds out there who can do similar things but again, where is the problem with that? The vast majority of caster and bow builds can't even get close to that level of survivability. Their survivability relies entirely on movement and distance. Put them into an environment where they can't maintain that (Simulacrum) and see how their portals melt away.

You tried a pretty good (though glassy) melee build this league and it changed your view quite a bit. Just imagine how much more it's going to change if you delve deeper.. And honestly, crucible has little to do with it. Sure the blatant powercreep makes it easier but it's not needed to make good and viable builds.

As for there being too few melee builds in the mix, yeah i'd agree with that, also that most of them aren't real melee, i.e use projectiles. That said, i don't see that changing. With monster density being what it is in POE single target skills will never be popular. You either blow up screens using tacked on projectiles and/or corpse explosions as melee and therefore become "not real melee" or you suck. Not much to do about that except redesigning the game as a whole.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

Maybe you should have read the topic before coming here to attack me like that.

Man, you guys in the forums really need to chill. He didn't attack you, you felt attacked.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

I participated at several points before this and addressed other points as well, can't be arsed to console every newb crying in here though.

Now, that's an attack.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

As for the issue with DPS uptime, it's mostly a build matter.

Not really, it's more of an melee vs. ranged matter. Ofc with high investiment you can achieve decent dps, but you'll have to invest significantly more. I'm talking about true melee here. True melee will always have low dps uptime in this game, that's a fact.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

There are some exceptions like Uber Sirus with his degen grounds but every Guardian, every Pinnacle boss and 5 out of 7 Uber Bosses can simply be face tanked for easy 70-80% dps uptime and you can still have 30+ mio dps while having that kind of defense with like 20-30 divines investment.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

Not to mention that the whole uptime argument falls apart entirely the moment you get enough DPS. Uber Sirus gives you a ~5 sec DPS window in his last phase before he uses any of his big moves, if you just kill him in that time the fight ends with you having 100% DPS uptime. If you are dodging mechanics in non uber content as melee you are just doing it wrong.

So you seem to be stating that in order to not suck as melee, you need to stat check the boss to the point of irrelevancy. Which just proves that melee is inferior. Not unplayable, but "mechanically" inferior. You know what I mean.

You are just saying that a fully completed melee char can trivialize a lot of bosses... I'm not saying they can't, it's just that getting to this point will be a lot harder.

I've noticed this "thing" among PoE players that if you're not obliterating the boss to avoid mechanics then "you're doing it wrong". Well that's simply bad boss design. And that's an objective fact, not an opinion. Anyone that has studied enemy design knows that. Some people may like this dynamic, but it goes against the design fundamentals, so to speak. You can clearly see the difference between good and challenging boss design(Innocence) and terrible boss design(Searing Exarch).

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

TL:DR: Get a clue.

Again, people need to chill a bit.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

If you are dodging mechanics in non uber content as melee you are just doing it wrong.

Most of what you say has some truth to it except for this :p quite frankly if you aren't dodging mechanics as any build you are doing it wrong and are thankfully permitted to do so by how lenient GGG are with content design.

Its good that GGG let us build up to a stage where we can sit in mechanics instead of dealing with them the regular way but the idea that you are doing it wrong if you actually apply some skill when playing melee is pretty silly.

Its like all things, the more skill you apply the less you need in other departments and vice versa, the more budget you apply to a build the less skill you need. Its up to each player to dictate where on that particular spectrum they want to be. Don't take a no mechanics approach because it works for you and tell others they are doing it wrong for learning said mechanics.

Dodging blows that can't harm you is wrong no matter what argument you try to employ here. Whether that is skill is up to debate (mechanical skill isn't the only skill there is) but it doesn't really matter.
Especially coming from you this argument just feels wrong. It was you who complained a few pages ago that melee has oh so bad damage uptime and now you are telling me that dodging mechanics and thereby worsening my damage uptime for no reason is the "right thing to do" and more skillfull. You'll have to die one death there, either be "skillfull" with shitty dps uptime or don't be and have all the uptime you need. Pick one. Hint, it's not the games or the archetypes fault if you make the bad choice.

PS: You really should try doing uber bosses for once before calling them "lenient boss design". There is nothing lenient about them trust me.

"

Not really, it's more of an melee vs. ranged matter.

No, it's not. Being able to freely move around while your totems do damage is one way of getting good damage uptime, but not the only one. Melee can just utilize the other for the same result. Melee is supposed to be the tank archetype afterall, just follow the fluff here. There isn't even any high investment required. DPS is expensive in this game, defense is dirt cheap.

"

True melee will always have low dps uptime in this game, that's a fact.

Once again, no it's not. It's as far away from a fact as it can get. It only applies if you try to play and build your real melee build like a totem build. Surprise, that doesn't work. But that's purely a you issue, nothing else.

"

Which just proves that melee is inferior. Not unplayable, but "mechanically" inferior. You know what I mean.

If you mean that some melee has to stand still to attack while some non melee builds totems, dots, brands etc don't have to then i guess you are right. But who gives a damn? Why break a sweat dodging everything with mechanics on my all so superior caster build if i can just stand there and cave the bosses face in while not giving a shit about his mechanics? You can call the possibility of that "bad design" if you like, but it's possible and if you insist of not using it then that's again a you issue.

You people really have to stop putting the blame for the consequences of your own choices on the game/archetype. You reap what you sow.

"

I'm not saying they can't, it's just that getting to this point will be a lot harder.

I could just say no again but... how about you provide some explicit examples on how it's "a lot harder" because looking at your profile i don't really get the impression that you even tried.