There is NO USA LAW that exempts you from wearing a mask...

Pass this along, there is NO LAW that exempts anyone from wearing a mask in a place of business. Businesses can enforce anyone in their establishment to wear a mask. So if you see someone ordering food not wearing a mask, leave because every time that person talks he endangers everyone.

A doctors note has no legal weight, none whatsoever...

Dont know about usa, but in my country you're not allowed to enter public buildings (like shops) without a mask. If you dont have a mask, security wont let you in.

Fyi that there is absolutely no enforceable law requiring anyone to wear a mask or close their business. Private businesses can have whatever rules they want operationally, but unless they choose to "enforce" them there isnt much they can do.

What a State Government can do is have a city or state ordinance which could result in fines, but even that is questionable, and probably lose in a lawsuit.

The state governments cannot create new laws without state government houses and/ or citizen voting.

So while I support everyone wearing a mask and doing their part to help control the spread, that doesnt give license for the government or public access businesses to stomp on your personal freedoms. We have to be very careful here to give too much authority to the government to "order" you to do anything.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Fyi that there is absolutely no enforceable law requiring anyone to wear a mask or close their business. Private businesses can have whatever rules they want operationally, but unless they choose to "enforce" them there isnt much they can do.

What a State Government can do is have a city or state ordinance which could result in fines, but even that is questionable, and probably lose in a lawsuit.

The state governments cannot create new laws without state government houses and/ or citizen voting.

So while I support everyone wearing a mask and doing their part to help control the spread, that doesnt give license for the government or public access businesses to stomp on your personal freedoms. We have to be very careful here to give too much authority to the government to "order" you to do anything.

On one hand i want people to have freedom, on the other - i think that people are too ... primitive, unfortunately. Many people lack empathy and understanding of how their actions affect others. Sometimes some control has to be put on this primitive mass. Hopefully someday, in a distant future, people will evolve into better beings.

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Toshis8 wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Fyi that there is absolutely no enforceable law requiring anyone to wear a mask or close their business. Private businesses can have whatever rules they want operationally, but unless they choose to "enforce" them there isnt much they can do.

What a State Government can do is have a city or state ordinance which could result in fines, but even that is questionable, and probably lose in a lawsuit.

The state governments cannot create new laws without state government houses and/ or citizen voting.

So while I support everyone wearing a mask and doing their part to help control the spread, that doesnt give license for the government or public access businesses to stomp on your personal freedoms. We have to be very careful here to give too much authority to the government to "order" you to do anything.

On one hand i want people to have freedom, on the other - i think that people are too ... primitive, unfortunately. Many people lack empathy and understanding of how their actions affect others. Sometimes some control has to be put on this primitive mass. Hopefully someday, in a distant future, people will evolve into better beings.

Most people's empathy and understanding end with their own personal welfare. You have many, many, small businesses on the verge, or already, bankrupt and closed. In the US we are nearly 7 months into dramatic economic stress. COVID fatigue is setting in and many folks are having to make tough decisions.

Do they risk their entire livelihood, or if they are business owners, the employment of all their employees, on mere chance that someone may get sick? If both parents are working, or single parents, with school cancelled, millions are unable to work or find daycare. We cannot function like this forever and at some point (and very soon imo), people are going to say fuck this shit, I have to feed my kids, keep the utilities on, pay the rent, etc...

I think it's a very big ask at the moment to continue to ask millions upon millions to throw away their lives, their savings, and their future for an illness with a less than 3% mortality rate. (and most of those impact people at risk with co-morbidities, for those that are otherwise healthy its less than 1%). It's not sustainable or reasonable.

EDIT: Not to mention anyone in the service industry, bars & restaurants, airlines, hospitality (Motels/Hotels/Bed&Breakfast), tourism, and more. It's a total disaster.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Most people's empathy and understanding end with their own personal welfare. You have many, many, small businesses on the verge, or already, bankrupt and closed. In the US we are nearly 7 months into dramatic economic stress. COVID fatigue is setting in and many folks are having to make tough decisions.

Do they risk their entire livelihood, or if they are business owners, the employment of all their employees, on mere chance that someone may get sick? If both parents are working, or single parents, with school cancelled, millions are unable to work or find daycare. We cannot function like this forever and at some point (and very soon imo), people are going to say fuck this shit, I have to feed my kids, keep the utilities on, pay the rent, etc...

I think it's a very big ask at the moment to continue to ask millions upon millions to throw away their lives, their savings, and their future for an illness with a less than 3% mortality rate. (and most of those impact people at risk with co-morbidities, for those that are otherwise healthy its less than 1%). It's not sustainable or reasonable.

EDIT: Not to mention anyone in the service industry, bars & restaurants, airlines, hospitality (Motels/Hotels/Bed&Breakfast), tourism, and more. It's a total disaster.

This virus isnt going away, not any time soon. Most likely we will have to live with it for a long time. Protection measures are taken not to save those 3%, but to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed with sick and dying people (hospitals have limited capacity afterall). I think that eventually everyone (or almost everyone) will get infected sooner or later, including those 3%. Its a new reality. The question is, how to slow down the infection rate, without doing too much damage to bussiness? If people were more understanding and careful, maybe government wouldnt have to take these measures. But people fail to behave properly.

It's very difficult to get people to go out of their way to prevent something that doesn't affect them directly, even if it can be shown that it will affect them indirectly. I am absolutely certain were I not vulnerable I would be a lot more lax about it all, especially here in NSW, Australia, where we've dodged the bullet (again), at least for now. No community transmission cases for half a week now. Not for lack of trying...

It's equally difficult to convince people that appropriate prevention's ultimate goal is to seem useless in hindsight. That flippant 'see, it was all for nothing' isn't a declaration of futility, but an unspoken 'it could have been a lot worse'.

Now over in the US? With those numbers, I reckon you'd be an absolute idiot not to wear a mask in public. Not to sanitise your hands frequently. Not to isolate where possible. Not because the mortality rate is 'so low' or the recovery rate 'so high', but because the effort to reduce getting it still outweighs the potential experience of it. Even directly. And that's not even taking into account the whole 'thinking of others' part of prevention, but I've already covered why that's so hard to get most people to do. We are tiny creatures with tiny worlds, tiny duties and responsibilities. A few times in our tiny lives we brush against the truly global, and it is terrifying.

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Toshis8 wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Most people's empathy and understanding end with their own personal welfare. You have many, many, small businesses on the verge, or already, bankrupt and closed. In the US we are nearly 7 months into dramatic economic stress. COVID fatigue is setting in and many folks are having to make tough decisions.

Do they risk their entire livelihood, or if they are business owners, the employment of all their employees, on mere chance that someone may get sick? If both parents are working, or single parents, with school cancelled, millions are unable to work or find daycare. We cannot function like this forever and at some point (and very soon imo), people are going to say fuck this shit, I have to feed my kids, keep the utilities on, pay the rent, etc...

I think it's a very big ask at the moment to continue to ask millions upon millions to throw away their lives, their savings, and their future for an illness with a less than 3% mortality rate. (and most of those impact people at risk with co-morbidities, for those that are otherwise healthy its less than 1%). It's not sustainable or reasonable.

EDIT: Not to mention anyone in the service industry, bars & restaurants, airlines, hospitality (Motels/Hotels/Bed&Breakfast), tourism, and more. It's a total disaster.

This virus isnt going away, not any time soon. Most likely we will have to live with it for a long time. Protection measures are taken not to save those 3%, but to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed with sick and dying people (hospitals have limited capacity afterall). I think that eventually everyone (or almost everyone) will get infected sooner or later, including those 3%. Its a new reality. The question is, how to slow down the infection rate, without doing too much damage to bussiness? If people were more understanding and careful, maybe government wouldnt have to take these measures. But people fail to behave properly.

I don't mean to try and imply your are being naïve, but unfortunately it doesn't have to do with "understanding" or "being careful". NOTHING prevents COVID. All you can do is reduce risk as much as possible. People do understand this. They just choose to weigh the risk in their actions. Sure there are some nutballs you see on a plane acting insane, or purposely filming themselves defiantly walking into a Walmart to make a point and get views on Insta/Facebook. This isn't the situation for Millions of Americans (and likely the entire world as COVID surges again).

From a personal standpoint, I live in IL, just outside Chicago. Our Governor is & has been, very strict, and currently you cannot even indoor dine in many cities in the State. It might snow over this weekend into Monday/Tuesday, and outdoor dining won't be possible any longer into the winter. It's likely in a month or two we will be looking at a near complete elimination of the entire food & bar industry in a massive American City. Hundreds of thousands will be out of work. If you are a bar owner, or small restaurant owner, what do you do? Do you defy the mandate from the Governor and stay open, or do you throw away your whole life and go out of business?

I don't want to be too pessimistic here, but I am cynical. I do think there is a very large chance that you see a revolt against COVID-19 restrictions as people face real, life changing, decisions as this drags on. There will be a breaking point, I just don't know exactly where it will begin. Wearing a mask helps reduce spread, but it doesn't keep your employer in business. Staying home keeps Grandma alive, but being evicted from your house puts your kids on the street.

I don't have good answers to any of this. It's likely we will have a vaccine in 2021, and that it's effective rate will be around 50% (like a normal flu-vaccine). In the US, many polls show that only around 50% of the population will be willing to get it. So you are looking at an effective inoculation rate around 25%. Point is COVID ain't going away, and people are pushed to the brink already.

This sounds fucking terrible, but I'm not sure permanently harming the economy, putting millions out of work, having millions homeless, millions food insecure, and more, is worth the 3% that may die, or potential healthcare facilities being overwhelmed. If you are sick stay home. If you are at risk stay home. If you need a hospital hopefully a bed is available. This is the best we can do. We cannot stay shutdown, we cannot stagnate the economy and kill business, we cannot shatter everyone's ability to make a living and support their children. If we try to do this, it will fail.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

It's very difficult to get people to go out of their way to prevent something that doesn't affect them directly, even if it can be shown that it will affect them indirectly. I am absolutely certain were I not vulnerable I would be a lot more lax about it all, especially here in NSW, Australia, where we've dodged the bullet (again), at least for now. No community transmission cases for half a week now. Not for lack of trying...

It's equally difficult to convince people that appropriate prevention's ultimate goal is to seem useless in hindsight. That flippant 'see, it was all for nothing' isn't a declaration of futility, but an unspoken 'it could have been a lot worse'.

Now over in the US? With those numbers, I reckon you'd be an absolute idiot not to wear a mask in public. Not to sanitise your hands frequently. Not to isolate where possible. Not because the mortality rate is 'so low' or the recovery rate 'so high', but because the effort to reduce getting it still outweighs the potential experience of it. Even directly. And that's not even taking into account the whole 'thinking of others' part of prevention, but I've already covered why that's so hard to get most people to do. We are tiny creatures with tiny worlds, tiny duties and responsibilities. A few times in our tiny lives we brush against the truly global, and it is terrifying.

Sometimes i wonder: is humanity learning and improving itself? Are we any better than people 50 or 100 years ago? Sometimes its very hard to see that change, no matter how hard i try.

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Toshis8 wrote:

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

It's very difficult to get people to go out of their way to prevent something that doesn't affect them directly, even if it can be shown that it will affect them indirectly. I am absolutely certain were I not vulnerable I would be a lot more lax about it all, especially here in NSW, Australia, where we've dodged the bullet (again), at least for now. No community transmission cases for half a week now. Not for lack of trying...

It's equally difficult to convince people that appropriate prevention's ultimate goal is to seem useless in hindsight. That flippant 'see, it was all for nothing' isn't a declaration of futility, but an unspoken 'it could have been a lot worse'.

Now over in the US? With those numbers, I reckon you'd be an absolute idiot not to wear a mask in public. Not to sanitise your hands frequently. Not to isolate where possible. Not because the mortality rate is 'so low' or the recovery rate 'so high', but because the effort to reduce getting it still outweighs the potential experience of it. Even directly. And that's not even taking into account the whole 'thinking of others' part of prevention, but I've already covered why that's so hard to get most people to do. We are tiny creatures with tiny worlds, tiny duties and responsibilities. A few times in our tiny lives we brush against the truly global, and it is terrifying.

Sometimes i wonder: is humanity learning and improving itself? Are we any better than people 50 or 100 years ago? Sometimes its very hard to see that change, no matter how hard i try.

Nah Human Nature is what keeps the species going. Both in good and bad. When there is a natural disaster people come together (see Shovel's thread). But we don't beach ourselves like whales and die, or act like lemmings and go off a cliff. Self-Interest keeps us alive.

For example do you send a large percentage of your income to starving kids in Africa? Does that make you a monster if not?

So yes, if a woman trips in front of me I will help her up. But no, I'm not giving my entire paycheck to the homeless guy outside the train station.