Cyclone
" Wait, ITYM that it's nerfed for 2h right? Or, more accurately, that CLEAVE is nerfed for dual wield? Because look at what you posted! Cyclone vs Cleave is MUCH closer in listed DPS when you dual wield, which is something I was just about to post about. This is because cleave has a 40% damage reduction penalty when dual wielding. Ok I have some numbers too, and by the way my point of confessing that I'm a level 40 (2 now) duelist is that EXACTLY, it's not even a great starting point and Cyclone is owning. Although I think duelist is much better now. But I digress. I think you guys are too focused on the DPS listed on the stat pages, and not on the impact you see in-game and how the mechanics of Cyclone works. I will explain. But first, I think this is TOTALLY understandable (since it's a new skill, and if you can't use the stat page then what good is it, really?) and I think, very strongly, that the DPS listed on the stat page for cyclone is WRONG. So, numbers! I'm dual-wielding swords right now. I didn't write down everything I now think I should have, and so I apologize, I can't run the game right now to check. But here's what I did write down: Without damage boosting, Base DPS: 438 Cleave DPS: 615 Cyclone DPS: 183 (42% of base, so I guess that's 35% damage effectiveness plus 24% from skill level 7?) I've been testing this out with Melee Damage on Full life on cleave, so that damage is actually 825 at full life, and I do have a fair amount of leech so at least part of the time, I'm getting that DPS. Cyclone, I only have life gain on hit supporting it (but I'm about to change this because Cyclone is really working for me). Says 24 per hit, on the skill I get 9 due to the scaling. I also have Slitherpinch for 3% health leech and 2% life leech, just as extra data points here. And finally, I didn't write this down, but I think dual strike is about 1k DPS right now. My run speed is pretty slow, which I think people have been noting is BETTER for Cyclone, but my attack speed is fairly high though I'm not speccing for it specifically. And maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe cyclone IS pretty useless if you have great run speed. And that makes sense, right? If you whizz past the enemies, how many times can you honestly hit them? And if you can run extremely fast, you can get around and distribute your other AOE damage better than cyclone? Also, I think some of you expert players who aren't liking this skill have mastered the other skills and what to support them with, what weapons to use them with, and with Cyclone being less than a week old, you haven't done the same for it? Just maybe. I see a lot of impressive numbers and builds out there, and human nature once you get settled into a thing that WORKS, other new things often just strike you the wrong way from the start. Anyway, for a dual-wield, I'm definitely, empirically but 100% positive nonetheless, seeing MUCH more damage output from Cyclone than Cleave. Regardless of the numbers above. You can't argue with corpses. I've tried ;D In fact, I'm pretty sure I can kill a boss monster just as fast rolling over him back and forth with cyclone as I can dual strike, even though the DPS is listed as SO much higher on dual strike, obviously. I haven't specifically tested this but in a mob that has a unique, I've used cyclone to kill the mob and then the unique has been very heavily damaged when I got around to him. But who cares, really, if cyclone is great on a single target? Doesn't affect whether it's good for AOE. IMO that addresses the damage issue. I think if you are using a 2-hander you won't like cyclone, but for dual-wield, seriously give it a legit go again. Another GREAT benefit for cyclone, at least if you put some leech on it, is moving through an annoying area with no difficulty. Like, the forest on the way to the encampment. Instead of battling hordes of monkeys, I just leeched from them steadily cycloning toward the encampment. First time that area didn't give me the shits. So for rushing I think this skill is great. As for Mana, I almost *never* have to use a mana pot, even when cycloning back and forth. Now, if I stack some more support on it, I'm sure I will. I also don't know about high level. So I think mana is a legit complaint, as some reasonable folks have said a slight reduction in mana cost is probably in order. Please don't make it mana over time though! I like the one-shot-and-then-your-mana-recharges approach, I think it's a good one. Again, like that skill I'm not supposed to ever mention again, from D2. And as for maneuverability, sure it'd be great if they gave you a shorter minimum distance, maybe even let you do it in place. I guess. I mean, if you want to do it in place, isn't there cleave, or sweep, or I dunno lightning strike? The point of this skill is to be on the MOVE and to hit mobs at the same time. It was sorely needed IMO, and now we have it. And keep in mind, the shorter the minimum, or if you want to use it in place, the MORE you will feel the mana cost if it remains a per-cyclone-mana-cost. Maybe part of the reason the mana doesn't bother me is I only employ it for somewhat-long runs, and through a lot of enemies? I'll try to take this guy as far as I can (though I like to stagger my characters so I can collect more high-level items before proceeding) and see if cyclone's got issues late game. Maps...I love you guys but not all of us are going to get there, or play there a lot. Maybe it's not right for you. That's cool. But if it's not right for you, I bet there's a skill that you already love. Amirite? Don't make cyclone OP (wait why am I saying that?) for us just so you can add it to your repertoire! My $2. Hopefully not just worth 2 cents. -Aaron |
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" Cleave hits with both weapons when dual wielding, whereas you don't get any extra weapons hits when dual wielding with cyclone. (One attack with each weapon per spin compared to 2 hits with main weapon when only wielding one). What makes Cleave so powerful is that it only has a penalty to *physical* damage, which makes dual-wielding elemental weapons insanely powerful with it, as showcased by nugiyen during the recent one week race. Additionally, Cleave has a significantly larger range (20 compared to the 4 of Cyclone when using a one-handed weapon, as far as I know), which means that you can hit enemies half a screen away with the right skill gems and skill nodes. For physical attacks, the 35% damage effectiveness really hurts it compared to the 70% of cleave. While it may seem that the 2 hits of 35% add up to 70%, this is not the case with physical damage, as armour mitigation scales based on the damage inflicted by a single hit. This means that 2 small hits will be reduced by a lot more than a single bigger hit would have been. Cyclone isn't an awful skill right now, it just doesn't compare well to Cleave, especially with dual-wielding. It's the only proper AoE for unarmed though, which I'm very happy about. With an increase to its range, a reduced minimum distance, and a small increase to the damage effectiveness, I think it should be a viable alternative to cleave. |
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" It remains amazing to me, your final claim, since it is 180 degrees out from my experience. I can't make videos (can barely run the game, without shadows, on decent settings). Can you make a video and demonstrate to us (to me?) that your cleave is so superior to your cyclone? We're using the same skills, and the same sorts of weapons, with vastly different results. Run speed? Man I dunno, there's got to be an explanation that isn't "Cyclone is the suxxors" because it's just not ;D OK no more posts for me for a few hours, I promise. -Aaron |
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" Pretty darn sure I've been getting kicked out of cyclone by stun/knockback. I was in the broken bridge and those archer groups and big bear things were stopping me even though I had clicked onto the other side of the mob. Might want to verify that, I'll also keep checking this out on my end. But if the above is the intention, please make sure it works! -Aaron, ok really, last post for a few hours, just wanted to re-read the description post. |
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" Nah, runspeed increases mana-efficiency for the skill and not much else. I run cyclone high-level in Maps with ~40 runspeed and it helps because it shortens the time you can't control your character by a lot. Less runspeed also sometimes means longer uptime of the skill on smaller groups but I think maneuverability is more important than damage uptime (unlike Kripp I guess). Mana is an issue if you don't build for it. I run 4% manaleech on my physical build and that it plenty enough with even some leeway for cursing or when failing a cyclone due to desync. Elemental builds will have a bottleneck here and I don't want that to be gone because if they don't have mana problems nothing negative is left for elemental cyclone and half of the last reason to go physical is void (which is leeching life/mana). I said it before, poor Dual-Wielding support and the discrepancy between elemental and physical Cyclone's damage are my main gripes, everything else besides the high desync dependency can be worked around. |
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(1) 1-handed dps < 2-handed dps
(2) Cyclone dual wield = 2x 35% different one-handed strike (per spin) with 1.1 ASP multiplier (3) Two handed = 2x 35% two handed strike (per spin) Summary : dual wield cyclone damage < two handed cyclone damage GGG, please say , why do you hate dual wielders so much? Why almost all skills alternates weapons , making them useless compared to dual strike and cleave? Skills that strikes both weapons obiviously deals more damage, which means all new sweet skill are garbage for dw users due to low dps. Last edited by Astvery#1657 on Mar 15, 2013, 10:23:36 AM
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" Was typing my response and everything got deleted so everything below is shortened Cant make vids playing on a mac with POE in wineskin Im not using any runspeed bonus so cyclone is going as slow as I can make it. 5L Cyclone will cost 500-700 mana and 12 seconds to kill pack of white skeles in Cruel Ledge while 3L cleave does it with 50-70 mana in under 5 seconds meanwhile LA ranged classes are killing the same mobs in under 1 second Also please buff physical melee GGG its just stupid that they do 1/4 the damage and kill speed of everything else when standing right next to mobs in the most dangerous position. Abyssus Crit Cleave - http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/381106 Last edited by Imml#5503 on Mar 15, 2013, 10:53:53 AM
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" OK I'll make the same test myself. I'll use the same boosts on both, not sure what I'll use because of gear but I'll try to link each up some. -Aaron |
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The biggest issue with this skill is that its 35% dmg, but 2 hits per revalation. This makes for a total of 70%. However if you have a physical damage build the damage reduction from monster armor will be much higher due to only dealing 35% per hit because of the way armor works.
I did so much testing with this skill and it seems elemental damage build are way superior. I hope GGG will introduce some abilities which does really good with phys. dmg. (like sweep). |
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" I was knocked out of cyclone by stun two times, once by two different mobs: Black Death and Fidelitas. Both heavy hitting bosses. I haven't had it happen other than those two instances. Probably desync's fault in some way or other. |
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