[3.9][HC/SC] Soulrend Trickster - Fast mapper with great defenses (League starter/All content)

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NiobMordodrukow wrote:

Also, another question:

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30% of the incoming damage is drained from our energy shield pool

But EB says "Spend ES before mana for Skill costs" It doesnt protect us via MoM, isnt it?

Energy shield protects mana instead of life when you get EB. In almost all damage calculations, energy shield is the first pool that gets drained. MoM makes it so that when we get hit, 30% of that damage will be drained from our mana pool, but we have energy shield protecting it. EB also allows us to freecast our spells because it doesn't interrupt the natural es regeneration(20% of the total es pool).

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Kurnis wrote:

One problem I'm concerned with, is Soulrend dot lasts for .40 seconds, but with skill duration from tree this goes up to .50 seconds. Our cast rate becomes faster than this (about .4 WITHOUT Escape Artist, which is up to 36% faster cast rate). So a lot of our dot will be wasted :/

No damage will be wasted. You don't factor in that the projectile has travel time until it reaches the target. Take the following scenario:

1. Cast soulrend once, it gets to the target, hits initially and applies the dot, the dot duration starts ticking.
2. Cast soulrend second time. It takes you X amout of time to cast the spell. Once you finish the cast, the projectile starts flying towards the target with Y travel speed. The applied dot from the first cast is still ticking and close to it's end or has already ended.
3. The second soulrend cast hits the target and the loop continues.

This is the reason why we don't take any duration nodes from the tree and use swift affliction for single target. Depending on the actual travel time and cast speed, if you are too close to the target, some of the dot instances will overlap and cause dps loss because each new overrides the previous one, but if you are too far away you won't reach the maximum potential dps because there will be a time gap with no applied dot instance on the target. Considering those things, you would want to find the sweetest spot that lets soulrend hit its target immediately after the previous dot has expired. Such timing is probably impossible to hit in reality, but the general rule of thumb should be to stay as far as you can from the target. I may draw a simple diagram later to visually express this.

In the end, Zealotry may turn out as a better dps increase than Malevolence, but gotta do some tests first. =)

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30% of that damage will be drained from our mana pool, but we have energy shield protecting it

Got it. Sounds pretty good.

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No damage will be wasted. You don't factor in that the projectile has travel time until it reaches the target. Take the following scenario:

1. Cast soulrend once, it gets to the target, hits initially and applies the dot, the dot duration starts ticking.
2. Cast soulrend second time. It takes you X amout of time to cast the spell. Once you finish the cast, the projectile starts flying towards the target with Y travel speed. The applied dot from the first cast is still ticking and close to it's end or has already ended.
3. The second soulrend cast hits the target and the loop continues.

This is the reason why we don't take any duration nodes from the tree and use swift affliction for single target. Depending on the actual travel time and cast speed, if you are too close to the target, some of the dot instances will overlap and cause dps loss because each new overrides the previous one, but if you are too far away you won't reach the maximum potential dps because there will be a time gap with no applied dot instance on the target. Considering those things, you would want to find the sweetest spot that lets soulrend hit its target immediately after the previous dot has expired. Such timing is probably impossible to hit in reality, but the general rule of thumb should be to stay as far as you can from the target. I may draw a simple diagram later to visually express this.

I guess, he says, that Soulrend deals 2k dmg per second, but it persists only 0.4 seconds, so, it will make only 800 dmg.

We need Malevolence aura to make it last 0.5 seconds and then we need to boost cast time of Soulrend from 0.8 seconds to 0.5 seconds. Then we need to boost dmg in any other ways without modifying cast speed or skill duration.

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NiobMordodrukow wrote:

Spoiler

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30% of that damage will be drained from our mana pool, but we have energy shield protecting it

Got it. Sounds pretty good.

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No damage will be wasted. You don't factor in that the projectile has travel time until it reaches the target. Take the following scenario:

1. Cast soulrend once, it gets to the target, hits initially and applies the dot, the dot duration starts ticking.
2. Cast soulrend second time. It takes you X amout of time to cast the spell. Once you finish the cast, the projectile starts flying towards the target with Y travel speed. The applied dot from the first cast is still ticking and close to it's end or has already ended.
3. The second soulrend cast hits the target and the loop continues.

This is the reason why we don't take any duration nodes from the tree and use swift affliction for single target. Depending on the actual travel time and cast speed, if you are too close to the target, some of the dot instances will overlap and cause dps loss because each new overrides the previous one, but if you are too far away you won't reach the maximum potential dps because there will be a time gap with no applied dot instance on the target. Considering those things, you would want to find the sweetest spot that lets soulrend hit its target immediately after the previous dot has expired. Such timing is probably impossible to hit in reality, but the general rule of thumb should be to stay as far as you can from the target. I may draw a simple diagram later to visually express this.

I guess, he says, that Soulrend deals 2k dmg per second, but it persists only 0.4 seconds, so, it will make only 800 dmg.

We need Malevolence aura to make it last 0.5 seconds and then we need to boost cast time of Soulrend from 0.8 seconds to 0.5 seconds. Then we need to boost dmg in any other ways without modifying cast speed or skill duration.

For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that soulrend has 0.5s duration time and 2k dot damage per second. If you cast it twice in one second, you will hit twice with the initial chaos damage and apply two 1k dot instances, which makes for a total of 2k damage over time dealt and 2x the initial hit damage. If you exceed the duration and go higher than 0.5s(let's say 1s duration) you will deal the same dot damage, but you will have to make less casts which directly converts into less total damage done from the initial hit. Less duration gem may turn out to be one of the highest dps support gems we can get, but needs some testing.

Wouldn't it be worth to spec into some skill effect duration?

Yes, i m talking about right the same: we need Soulrend cast time and debuff duration to be equal.

With 0.5 duration we need 60% increased cast speed. We have it on the tree, btw (if we have 3 shadow veils). Also: Prolonged pain gives another 20% duration, so idk about Vaal haste.

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but you will have to make less casts which directly converts into less damage done from the initial hit. Less duration gem may turn out to be one of the highest dps support gems we can get, but needs some testing

Initial hit has very low dmg compare to dps part. It is not worth it, i guess...

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NiobMordodrukow wrote:

Yes, i m talking about right the same: we need Soulrend cast time and debuff duration to be equal.

With 0.5 duration we need 60% increased cast speed. We have it on the tree, btw (if we have 3 shadow veils). Also: Prolonged pain gives another 20% duration, so idk about Vaal haste.

False, they don't need to be equal. You can easily regulate the interval between each hits simply by moving closer or further away from your target because the projectile has travel time. That's what I explained in the first post. The less duration the dot has, the more casts you will have to do, which converts in the same overall damage done from the dot portion, but higher total damage done from the initial hit.

Here's some math, assume two different scenarios:

1. 1k hit damage, 2k dot dps, 0.5s dot duration(1000dmg). Total damage done for interval of 1 second: 2 casts x (1k+1k)=4k.
2. 1k hit damage, 2k dot dps, 0.2s dot duration(400dmg). Total damage done for interval of 1 second: 5 casts x (1k+400)=7k.

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You can easily regulate the interval between each hits simply by moving closer or further away from your target because the projectile has travel time

Yes, you can, but why would you do that? I mean: it works on a map, but when you encounter the boss, you will soon end at his feet or at the location border. Depends on the length of cast time and debuff duration. You can then make a long move to start all over again, but at the end it is big QoL decrease. Why people play totems? Because they dont want to dance around the boss like a crazy bee (i mean: dont want to dance to do some damage).

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1. 1k hit damage, 2k dot dps, 0.5s dot duration(1000dmg). Total damage done for interval of 1 second: 2 casts x (1k+1k)=4k.
2. 1k hit damage, 2k dot dps, 0.2s dot duration(400dmg). Total damage done for interval of 1 second: 5 casts x (1k+400)=7k.

It is right, but why do you need to use lesser duration gem, if you can simply use better one (for example: faster attacks to achieve these 5 casts a second) and overlap durations?

If the distance between you and the target doesn't change significantly between the casts, travel time doesn't matter for DoT reapplication timings, because it's roughly the same for each cast. DoT gets reapplied with a delay due to projectile travel time, but the previous instance has been applied after the same delay.

Hello. Thank you very much for these awesome builds! Would like to ask who will have better single target? I suppose Occultist is better for single target?

However, in your PoB links, CI Occultist has only around 130k dps while Life Trickster has 175k DPS. So, the difference is pretty significant, thats why I am asking. Hope you can clarify. Thanks again!

Correct me if I am wrong: Trickster best for fast mapping, Occultist best for bossing, right?

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NiobMordodrukow wrote:

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1. 1k hit damage, 2k dot dps, 0.5s dot duration(1000dmg). Total damage done for interval of 1 second: 2 casts x (1k+1k)=4k.
2. 1k hit damage, 2k dot dps, 0.2s dot duration(400dmg). Total damage done for interval of 1 second: 5 casts x (1k+400)=7k.

It is right, but why do you need to use lesser duration gem, if you can simply use better one (for example: faster attacks to achieve these 5 casts a second) and overlap durations?

Faster attacks doesn't work with spells, you mean faster casting. What you want to do is to dish out as many casts as you can with minimal dot overlapping or downtime per one second. Faster casting is worthless in this scenario, you get high enough cast speed from the trickster ascendancy.

Decerasing the duration time means that you can stay closer to the target without losing dps from overlapping or absence of an active dot instance, plus increasing the number of initial hits done, which results in dps increase.