Delve Costing Changes

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Oblitus wrote:

"RNG is fucking me, this league sucks"

That's what it sounds like to me, without intending to provoke you.
But you really seem to be playing an entirely different game, this has been one of the smoothest and easiest leagues to get into, in my experience.

Some tips to maybe help you:

- don't focus on pushing your delve deeper, focus on going horizontally at "sufficient" depths (like red map level) to get more delves for the same sulphite and find more city biomes, currency nodes and bosses

- look into how to sustain red maps properly, there are plenty of guides around. I'm not trying to be snarky, but you can sustain red maps pretty easily without any league mechanic, the leagues usually just make it even easier. Oh also, we actually have Harbinger map mods this league too just fyi, and Shaper Strongholds drop Horizon orbs - focus them!

- learn how to fossil-craft properly. If you are just using 1 fossil on any given item and hoping for god tier rolls, you'll be disappointed. The way you use fossils properly (especially in SSF or non-trade scenarios) is to *BLOCK* mods you don't want, instead of just looking at "this fossil potentially adds an amazing mod i want". In some scenarios you can pretty easily get very good items with just 2-3 fossil combos, in some cases Prime resonators will be required to really get to the juicy rolls though.

- farm fossils and resonators by looking for the longest delves possible in interesting biomes (there are guides out that show you where fossils can spawn). The longer the delve node, the more breakable walls and fossils will spawn (as well as free currency chests etc). This can be done at very low depths for immense profit/crafting material gains! 1 node at your current progress depth may translate to literally dozens and dozens of nodes at lower depths you can pillage for crafting/profit.

Just some tips I thought might help you in Delve o/

Once again i'll helpfully point out that Harbinger did not add much in terms of quantity/item returns, and that map sustain in Delve as almost as easy if you know how!

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elderwood wrote:

SSF is simply Standard with all the slim benefits of (pita) trading removed! I suspect that if they buffed the drop rate in SSF so that it wasn't so punitive to play SSF, that would solve a lot of the 'traditional' ARPG players issues.
Of course, make the characters locked to the SSF league and don't allow any transference, that goes without saying if you want to protect your precious economy.

But that's one of my biggest bugbears in this game.


Fucking inflation!! I play games in general to get away from the real world, and I play ARPG's to kill stuff, loot stuff, equip stuff and kill more stuff. I doubt I'm alone in either aspect.
If I wanted to play a stock market sim I would, but I don't. That's why I was suckered into this game in the first place, because I thought it was an ARPG.

I think a lot of people started playing POE not realising that it's not the 'Traditional ARPG' that it pretends to be on the box. They are then left with the stark choice, like it or leave. And with time, and money, invested in the game, they feel like they have to stay, with the vain hope that the game will someday mature in to something less punitive.

I'll be interested to see what happens to POE once Diablo 4 is released, especially if it goes down the more 'Trad ARPG' route. I suspect a large portion of the player base may well abandon POE and certainly won't miss the elitist jerk atmosphere that is developing in POE over recent months.

Huh?
How is SSF "standard"? You can play Delve SSF mode right now...
SSF has a very lively community and plenty of streamers very into it (check out tarkecat for example).

I'm not sure excactly what your problem with SSF is....if you're comparing PoE to D3 you'Re doing it wrong, 2 entirely different metas. But i do suspect many players come from D3 and get frustrated because PoE is nowhere near as accessible and has far more depth to it.

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elderwood wrote:

SSF is simply Standard with all the slim benefits of (pita) trading removed! I suspect that if they buffed the drop rate in SSF so that it wasn't so punitive to play SSF, that would solve a lot of the 'traditional' ARPG players issues.
Of course, make the characters locked to the SSF league and don't allow any transference, that goes without saying if you want to protect your precious economy.

But that's one of my biggest bugbears in this game.


Fucking inflation!! I play games in general to get away from the real world, and I play ARPG's to kill stuff, loot stuff, equip stuff and kill more stuff. I doubt I'm alone in either aspect.
If I wanted to play a stock market sim I would, but I don't. That's why I was suckered into this game in the first place, because I thought it was an ARPG.

I think a lot of people started playing POE not realising that it's not the 'Traditional ARPG' that it pretends to be on the box. They are then left with the stark choice, like it or leave. And with time, and money, invested in the game, they feel like they have to stay, with the vain hope that the game will someday mature in to something less punitive.

I'll be interested to see what happens to POE once Diablo 4 is released, especially if it goes down the more 'Trad ARPG' route. I suspect a large portion of the player base may well abandon POE and certainly won't miss the elitist jerk atmosphere that is developing in POE over recent months.

"

Miffy23 wrote:

Huh?
How is SSF "standard"? You can play Delve SSF mode right now...
SSF has a very lively community and plenty of streamers very into it (check out tarkecat for example).

I'm not sure excactly what your problem with SSF is....if you're comparing PoE to D3 you'Re doing it wrong, 2 entirely different metas. But i do suspect many players come from D3 and get frustrated because PoE is nowhere near as accessible and has far more depth to it.

Although I didn't mention D3 (as D3 tends to be the Fisher Price of ARPG's) I take your point. However, for all of POE's depth, it's sometimes very difficult to find what you need, especially if you don't know it exists in the first place. POE tends to treat information like Scrooge treats money, you have to pry it from them when they should be giving you some (perhaps not all) of it freely.

As for the SSF/Standard comment, I assumed you would know what I was inferring.
In terms of drop rates there is no difference between SSF and any other equivalent league, however you cannot trade in SSF. Whilst that is the whole point of SSF, the chances of you organically getting the things you need for your build is minuscule, even farming cards. And as has been pointed out, if you are using a sub-standard build (or no build at all), you are ill-equipped for end game content. People therefore follow build guides, most of which have mandatory uniques. Getting those, without trading is extremely tough.
By not buffing the drop rates, all GGG have done is remove one potential source of acquisition (trading) but not replaced it with anything at all (buffed drop rates). Too many 'cons', not enough 'pros' to balance them.
This makes SSF a 'challenge' for sure, but it also makes it frustrating and not certainly not what I was hoping for when it was announced.

My point is that I suspect SSF is arguably too punitive to be enjoyable for most trad ARPG players.

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elderwood wrote:

[
Although I didn't mention D3 (as D3 tends to be the Fisher Price of ARPG's) I take your point. However, for all of POE's depth, it's sometimes very difficult to find what you need, especially if you don't know it exists in the first place. POE tends to treat information like Scrooge treats money, you have to pry it from them when they should be giving you some (perhaps not all) of it freely.

As for the SSF/Standard comment, I assumed you would know what I was inferring.
In terms of drop rates there is no difference between SSF and any other equivalent league, however you cannot trade in SSF. Whilst that is the whole point of SSF, the chances of you organically getting the things you need for your build is minuscule, even farming cards. And as has been pointed out, if you are using a sub-standard build (or no build at all), you are ill-equipped for end game content. People therefore follow build guides, most of which have mandatory uniques. Getting those, without trading is extremely tough.
By not buffing the drop rates, all GGG have done is remove one potential source of acquisition (trading) but not replaced it with anything at all (buffed drop rates). Too many 'cons', not enough 'pros' to balance them.
This makes SSF a 'challenge' for sure, but it also makes it frustrating and not certainly not what I was hoping for when it was announced.

My point is that I suspect SSF is arguably too punitive to be enjoyable for most trad ARPG players.

I mentioned Diablo because you mentioned D4, seemingly indicating that you prefer the current Diablo approach of power over gear creep. Meaning it is very accessible and showers you in drops, but also burns through content faster and seasonal play usually grinds to a halt within weeks versus months in PoE.

SSF is intentionally not showering you in drops the way Diablo does, because PoE is an entirely different meta with vastly more build and item complexity. You have to build differently, play differently, plan differently in SSF, and many players enjoy that immensely. You have many more options to progress in PoE via items and builds, whereas D3 has very specific builds that you MUST go for to progress properly, and ergo shoves these items in your face sooner rather than later.

This is, again, why i mentioned Diablo because it seems obvious to me that many players come try out PoE after playing D3 and are used to the different meta of having shiny things thrown at them constantly.

It's true that PoE has a bit more of an information barrier, if you want to get better, you have to consult other players for the most part.
Thankfully PoE has developed a huge and active streamer and youtuber community over the years that provide practically all the information you ever need.

The Delving cost increased too, So now i have 3k point instead of 900 but i pay 1200 point isntead of 300 So whats the point of this??? Really dissapointed because of this trash suplhur farm system

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Miffy23 wrote:

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Oblitus wrote:

"RNG is fucking me, this league sucks"

That's what it sounds like to me, without intending to provoke you.
But you really seem to be playing an entirely different game, this has been one of the smoothest and easiest leagues to get into, in my experience.

And for me it is absolutely the worst. And not just "kinda bad" but "what the fuck is happening" level. Add dead on delivery league mechanics and patches that breaking it further...

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look into how to sustain red maps properly, there are plenty of guides around. I'm not trying to be snarky, but you can sustain red maps pretty easily without any league mechanic, the leagues usually just make it even easier. Oh also, we actually have Harbinger map mods this league too just fyi, and Shaper Strongholds drop Horizon orbs - focus them!

I am just today progressed Zana quest to make strongholds spawn. Yes, it is THAT bad.

Also, all that sustain startegies are all built around trade. This is not sustaining. Buying sextants, chisels, vaals etc is no different from buying maps. What's the point to buy access from content? Why not buy account with level 100 character and 40/40 completion and not declare "I beaten the game" then?

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don't focus on pushing your delve deeper, focus on going horizontally at "sufficient" depths (like red map level) to get more delves for the same sulphite and find more city biomes, currency nodes and bosses

I barely reached YELLOW map level in delve.

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Oblitus wrote:

last post

I don't really know what to tell you. You seem to be struggling with the basics of mapping - again, not trying to be snarky here, just observing. The principles of getting into red maps don't really change from one league to the next, and it's always the same deal.

I can only assume that you are stubbornly refusing to engage in most trading activity, as well as refusing to chisel/sextant (although those aren't really necessary until well into red maps tbf), leading to you relying entirely on natural map drops to progress. That, i'm afraid, simply won't work out very well.

Sustaining means to generate map drops at a certain tier level (or specific maps, if you have shaped your atlas accordingly) sufficiently to not have to buy more maps - this includes, however, that you are optimizing your map returns.

However i can tell you that up until red maps you don't really need to do anything except to transmute/aug white maps and alch yellow maps, there's no need for any other investments. Buy maps that don't drop to complete each Tier as you go up, and you should be getting plenty map drops as you unlock more.

The issue ain't with the game, there's nothing broken, you just ain't doing it right, to put it bluntly.

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Miffy23 wrote:

It stay more or less the same, it only starts feeling really bad when you push way beyond the 300-400 range, before that you still get roughly 1 Delve node per Sulphite node (at good quantity rolls on the maps).

Honestly I believe the reason so many - especially more casual - players are frustrated is because they expected more of an alternative to mapping, instead of a traditional league mechanic deeply connected to mapping.

That hasn't changed compared to previous leagues, you always wanted to aim for high red maps in most leagues. But the attitude has.

Partially it's because of their miscommunication, they advertised delving as a form of Greater Rifts like in D3, which they really aren't.

Part of it is also due to people relying way too heavily on Quarry farming and now being screwed because they were lazy and didn't prepare their Atlas.

Personally enjoying it immensely and consider it one of the best leagues to date.

That's rather subjective.

I too consider it one of the best league to date. I don't want to farm quarry, and I don't know a single thing about Diablo, so I had no expectation. All I know is that I like Delve, it's really working.

So I want to delve, and I want to reach high tier maps to get more sulphite to delve even more. But then I end up at exactly what you're saying, one sulphite deposit per length travelled in the map.

And that's where things get subjective. How do we feel about that ratio? You're okay with it. I guess GGG is too. Personally, I would have preferred more freedom in my delve exploration. I wish I could reach things appearing on the side in less than 6 maps.

Since it seems like GGG actually takes the time to read a lot of responses, I'll go ahead and make one myself.

I've never been one to push end-game content because I've never liked the system of sustaining maps. I have close to 750 hours in the game and have never even killed Shaper. And you know what? I don't really have a desire to. I say this to say that people enjoy the game a lot of different ways. When Delve was first released, I was hooked. I made it into the 80s with two characters barely touching maps and was loving it.

However, after this recent patch I would have to agree with many other posters that if now suddenly feels like GGG is gating what many see as alternate post-story content behind existing post-story content. Like with maps, I have little desire to go deeper than 100-150 depth, but with current rates I need to run 2 maps of equal level for 1 short delve. It sounds like this next patch will make this even worse. It seems like people who are not pushing top tier content are being punished for wanting to play the game the way they enjoy it.

Also, call me crazy, but infinite mining of sulphite in a zone called Quarry kind of thematically made sense to me.

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eternalbeta wrote:

However, after this recent patch I would have to agree with many other posters that if now suddenly feels like GGG is gating what many see as alternate post-story content behind existing post-story content. Like with maps, I have little desire to go deeper than 100-150 depth, but with current rates I need to run 2 maps of equal level for 1 short delve. It sounds like this next patch will make this even worse. It seems like people who are not pushing top tier content are being punished for wanting to play the game the way they enjoy it.

Also, call me crazy, but infinite mining of sulphite in a zone called Quarry kind of thematically made sense to me.

I felt the same way about Quarry!
Also, for perspective, after the latest patch I'm seeing these stats:
T14 Map, alched, vaaled, 122% IIQ total, Monster level:81, 638 Sulphite gained
Delve depth 214, Monster level 79, 2 nearest paths I can take: 915 sulphite and 2169
And what is really irritating is that neither of those paths is down. I have around 5k in sulphite expenditure just to progress down to depth 217. And these are at monster depths TWO LEVELS lower than the map I'm doing. I honestly cannot believe that anyone at GGG did any sort of math on this at all. I think they panicked, took something that sounded good to them and pushed it out to live. TEN T14 alched, vaaled maps with a max rolled biscos to get to the next section of my delve. But wait! I got 1 T12 map to drop in that T14 map so I'm not even able to sustain that...

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hogscraper wrote:

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eternalbeta wrote:

However, after this recent patch I would have to agree with many other posters that if now suddenly feels like GGG is gating what many see as alternate post-story content behind existing post-story content. Like with maps, I have little desire to go deeper than 100-150 depth, but with current rates I need to run 2 maps of equal level for 1 short delve. It sounds like this next patch will make this even worse. It seems like people who are not pushing top tier content are being punished for wanting to play the game the way they enjoy it.

Also, call me crazy, but infinite mining of sulphite in a zone called Quarry kind of thematically made sense to me.

I felt the same way about Quarry!
Also, for perspective, after the latest patch I'm seeing these stats:
T14 Map, alched, vaaled, 122% IIQ total, Monster level:81, 638 Sulphite gained
Delve depth 214, Monster level 79, 2 nearest paths I can take: 915 sulphite and 2169
And what is really irritating is that neither of those paths is down. I have around 5k in sulphite expenditure just to progress down to depth 217. And these are at monster depths TWO LEVELS lower than the map I'm doing. I honestly cannot believe that anyone at GGG did any sort of math on this at all. I think they panicked, took something that sounded good to them and pushed it out to live. TEN T14 alched, vaaled maps with a max rolled biscos to get to the next section of my delve. But wait! I got 1 T12 map to drop in that T14 map so I'm not even able to sustain that...

Your numbers are way off.
I've been very consistently getting 800-1300 sulphite per node from t14-t16 maps with high IIQ, while a regular short node at depth 300 costs roughly 700 sulphite (and it caps at 802 sulphite coste iirc for short nodes).

I've also found that they delivered on what they promised - it doesn't really matter whether you run T14 or T16 maps, just the quantity (and to a lesser degree, map layout, since some seem to spawn more nodes more frequently than others).

Also fyi quantity on your gear does diddly-squat for sulphite.