Delve Costing Changes

So the last patch said they took into consideration the fact that not everybody can sustain maps as high as where they are in the mine. I read that and felt it was a great change, then went to play the game.

I'm currently completing the atlas on T8, depending on what Zana sells. Monsters are level 75. I'm only at around depth 110 in the mine, though. Monsters here are level 71. Four tiers lower. I'm so far behind, I should have no problem getting tons of sulphite right?

At that depth, it costs 136 to travel one length in any direction.
Niko gave me 418 sulphite in my last T8 (with 71% IIQ, 38% IIR).

Just enough to travel 3 lengths, from a map 4 tiers higher than my current depth.

So then I wondered, what would a map of the same tier give me? So I did a T4 (with 67% IIQ, 35% IIR), and got 265 sulphite, so about 2 lengths.

And you want me to believe I'll be able to delve deeper with lower tier maps, when maps of the same tier or higher barely allow me to move in any direction already? I'm supposed to believe T8 will be enough for depth 150 (equivalent tier) when it's already not enough for 110?

That can't be your intended balancing of the cost compared to what drops in maps. That's just way too high. Or maybe you think we always find two or three deposits per map? Well, that's not the case.

so please, change something. This can't be your intended balancing.

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WildWombat wrote:

How about halving (or more) the cost to go sideways, I see stuff to the side and think that looks interesting. oh will take me 20 maps worth of sulphide to get there, nope I'll just keep going down. The cost of sulphide takes away to capacity to explore and have fun

That's a great idea. Doesn't remove the need to lower the cost going down, of course, but that would be a good and interesting change.

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Miffy23 wrote:

I'll tell you though what happens if content like delves have no opportunity cost or timesink involved, yet retain their current rewards: the market crashes, inflation soars, everyone obtains their best gear much, much faster and is done with the league in days.

Harbinger was like that. Everything was cheap and I had insane luck with drops (chanced HH on 10th attempt, no less). It was best goddamn league, and I've played it 8 hours a day till the end. So no, at least for me "no loot for you" does not work as retention factor.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. When you farm, farm and farm getting fucking nothing you start to feel insane. At least I do.

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Oblitus wrote:

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Miffy23 wrote:

I'll tell you though what happens if content like delves have no opportunity cost or timesink involved, yet retain their current rewards: the market crashes, inflation soars, everyone obtains their best gear much, much faster and is done with the league in days.

Harbinger was like that. Everything was cheap and I had insane luck with drops (chanced HH on 10th attempt, no less). It was best goddamn league, and I've played it 8 hours a day till the end. So no, at least for me "no loot for you" does not work as retention factor.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. When you farm, farm and farm getting fucking nothing you start to feel insane. At least I do.

Honestly this is usually due to people not really knowing what to look for on drops or how to make currency off what they get.

I get that it's not for everyone, but if you're just running around hoping for those Exalt Tier drops you'll likely get frustrated.

Also, I played Harbinger excessively as well, and there was no such thing going on. Map sustain was about as easy as it is now (delve city biomes shower you in maps), relative value of desirable items was more or less the same. As you say yourself you were extremely lucky, so that will have coloured your experience quite a bit.

You know why things are more expensive now? Because you have inflation from very easily accessible currency, fossils and drops in delves. Easier access means more cheap items and basic currency, and to a lesser degree, more desirable items on the market, but less so. This spells inflation. Now imagine what happens when you remove the time/sulphite cost entirely, but keep the returns.

If anything sulphite should be shared across characters as well. Delve has the unfornute problem of being supposedly playable by all characters but the reality of it actually requiring rather tough characters especially those with mechanic that can kill things without much of a need to attack. Things like totems, degen AoEs and so on.

When you are playing a low life character which has to rely on normal attack skills you tend to be killed very quickly without much of a chance of being able to do anything about it.

As such it would be a better idea to share sulphite so that you can play your fun character in maps and your dlve character in the mine.

I'm beginning to realise how subjective and contextual opinions are on Delving. The changes appear to be working for me... with lvl 80 char, playing maybe an hour a day, haven't delved passed depth 80 and haven't even completed a Tier 5 map.

I wonder how I'm going to feel when I start trying to delve deeper?

Balancing this league for the majority of players is one hell of an undertaking. I hope GGG manages it though. I would very much like to see Delving as part of the core game.

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obadonke wrote:

I'm beginning to realise how subjective and contextual opinions are on Delving. The changes appear to be working for me... with lvl 80 char, playing maybe an hour a day, haven't delved passed depth 80 and haven't even completed a Tier 5 map.

I wonder how I'm going to feel when I start trying to delve deeper?

Balancing this league for the majority of players is one hell of an undertaking. I hope GGG manages it though. I would very much like to see Delving as part of the core game.

It stay more or less the same, it only starts feeling really bad when you push way beyond the 300-400 range, before that you still get roughly 1 Delve node per Sulphite node (at good quantity rolls on the maps).

Honestly I believe the reason so many - especially more casual - players are frustrated is because they expected more of an alternative to mapping, instead of a traditional league mechanic deeply connected to mapping.

That hasn't changed compared to previous leagues, you always wanted to aim for high red maps in most leagues. But the attitude has.

Partially it's because of their miscommunication, they advertised delving as a form of Greater Rifts like in D3, which they really aren't.

Part of it is also due to people relying way too heavily on Quarry farming and now being screwed because they were lazy and didn't prepare their Atlas.

Personally enjoying it immensely and consider it one of the best leagues to date.

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Miffy23 wrote:

Honestly this is usually due to people not really knowing what to look for on drops or how to make currency off what they get.

If it involves trade I'm not interested.

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Miffy23 wrote:

Also, I played Harbinger excessively as well, and there was no such thing going on. Map sustain was about as easy as it is now (delve city biomes shower you in maps)

Absolutely not.

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Miffy23 wrote:

As you say yourself you were extremely lucky, so that will have coloured your experience quite a bit.

I don't believe in 1000 hours long luck streak.

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Miffy23 wrote:

You know why things are more expensive now? Because you have inflation from very easily accessible currency, fossils and drops in delves. Easier access means more cheap items and basic currency, and to a lesser degree, more desirable items on the market, but less so. This spells inflation. Now imagine what happens when you remove the time/sulphite cost entirely, but keep the returns.

I'm not talking about exact price. I am talking about how difficult it is to get stuff.

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Oblitus wrote:

If it involves trade I'm not interested.

Shouldn't you be playing SSF then?

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Absolutely not.

We're apparently playing different games, then.

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I don't believe in 1000 hours long luck streak.

Not sure I follow. You were generally "finding more" in Harbinger, you mean? I still maintain you simply need more awareness about what sells in terms of item mods. It'S very easy to make money off practically any content if you know how. But that involves trade, which you abhor apparently so eh.

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I'm not talking about exact price. I am talking about how difficult it is to get stuff.

So just natural drops? For that delves are far, FAR better than Harbinger. Harbinger added tons of special currencies, maps and a little bit of quantity, but that was it. Delves add shit tons of tools to craft overpowered items yourself, as well as showering you in "free" currency and extra items, comparable to Incursions or Abysses.

Again, you're talking like an SSF player that is forcing him/herself to play Trade League and hating it. I'd recommend you look into SSF mode and learn a bit more about crafting though, else you'll struggle even more there.

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Miffy23 wrote:

Shouldn't you be playing SSF then?

SSF just disables your trade. It does not change drop or anything.

I've played SSF in last flashback to get demigod, and ended up just short of getting it. Still, got armor set MTX. It is not better than playing trade league and ignoring trade unless you absolutely has to.

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We're apparently playing different games, then.

Probably yes. Map sustain is absolutely abyssmal this league.

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Not sure I follow. You were generally "finding more" in Harbinger, you mean?

Not just more. Massively more. And I've played in goddamn SSF almost entire league, only migrated at the end to finish Atziri grind in rotas to get that 40/40 totem. Yes, I made it to somewhere like 37/40 in SSF. And had fun doing it.

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Delves add shit tons of tools to craft overpowered items yourself

Yes, you just have to buy a ton of said tools. For me it produces trash I'll be ashamed to show to vendors.

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Harbinger added tons of special currencies, maps and a little bit of quantity, but that was it.

Exactly. It provided essentially free access to maps you want. And since it was all about maps that league, it was basically free access to endgame content. It was like Delve would be without sulphite. I had more than 30 beachheads done in SSF.

Miffy23...

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Again, you're talking like an SSF player that is forcing him/herself to play Trade League and hating it. I'd recommend you look into SSF mode...

SSF is simply Standard with all the slim benefits of (pita) trading removed! I suspect that if they buffed the drop rate in SSF so that it wasn't so punitive to play SSF, that would solve a lot of the 'traditional' ARPG players issues.
Of course, make the characters locked to the SSF league and don't allow any transference, that goes without saying if you want to protect your precious economy.

But that's one of my biggest bugbears in this game.

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You know why things are more expensive now? Because you have inflation...

Fucking inflation!! I play games in general to get away from the real world, and I play ARPG's to kill stuff, loot stuff, equip stuff and kill more stuff. I doubt I'm alone in either aspect.
If I wanted to play a stock market sim I would, but I don't. That's why I was suckered into this game in the first place, because I thought it was an ARPG.

I think a lot of people started playing POE not realising that it's not the 'Traditional ARPG' that it pretends to be on the box. They are then left with the stark choice, like it or leave. And with time, and money, invested in the game, they feel like they have to stay, with the vain hope that the game will someday mature in to something less punitive.

I'll be interested to see what happens to POE once Diablo 4 is released, especially if it goes down the more 'Trad ARPG' route. I suspect a large portion of the player base may well abandon POE and certainly won't miss the elitist jerk atmosphere that is developing in POE over recent months.