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Turtledove wrote:
Nice post.
I seem to have the same long range hopes.
Thanks?
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Turtledove wrote:
In the meantime, here's the current tally.
You're advocating a quota system for Congressional representation.
I believe in proportional representation. I really do. But I would hope that the types of groupings we would aim to represent proportionally would be more meaningful than race and gender. Don't you think there are bigger issues? Lots of bigger issues?
I don't think ANY meaning should be attached to the color of one's skin. I think the biological differences between men and women have some relevance, but not as far as legislators go. Why should the things that don't matter be the metrics of a quota system?
This kind of reply makes me think you either don't understand me, or you do and you're trolling.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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Posted byScrotieMcB#2697on Apr 28, 2019, 1:11:01 AM
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Turtledove wrote:
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
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Turtledove wrote:
All things being equal in the last election I had tendency to vote for the minority or the female on the ballot.
So racist and sexist motivations aren't your primary considerations, they're low-priority tiebreakers for you. Well, at least that isn't very racist nor very sexist. My appreciation for your candor outweighs my disappointment.
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Turtledove wrote:
The Democratic party will have great success against the Republicans, as long as the Republicans are the party for old white men (like me, 67 BTW) and the Democrats are the party for the young, for women and for minorities.
No party should be any more nor less for ethnic minorities than for white people. That makes political parties racist. "In this election, blacks and women won, and old white guys lost." Or vice versa. Neither is okay.
Additionally, the least racist party — technically, the one perceived as least racist, but ideally perception matches reality — has an advantage in a two-party system. Let's say one party is (perceived as) racist against black people and the other party isn't (perceived as) significantly racist against anyone (just some minor accidental stuff, because no one is perfect). If there's any blacks who are racist against non-black people, it's not rocket science who they're going to vote for, even if the second party doesn't cater to them even a tiny bit. (If you truly understand this you'll understand why the left is putting out anti-Semitic dog whistles, then backpedaling when they get too much heat for it.)
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Turtledove wrote:
This reverse racism and sexist thing that you folks have going on will likely really help the Democrats.
I acknowledge that risk, and probably understand it a lot better than you do.
I know that the fringe right engages in pro-white racism and uses an anti-Semitic persecution narrative to justify that racism. By pointing to institutional racism and sexism against white males, I understand that I'm partially agreeing with them on the problem (although definitely not the anti-Semitic half). I don't like publicly agreeing with them on anything, because I don't like confirming their narrative, even partially.
My most important point of disagreement with them is on the solution. They believe the answer to racism against whites is racism against non-whites. I don't think racism and reverse racism work that way, like matter and antimatter where one cleanly cancels out the other. (Even in physics that's a myth; the energy created is enormous and disastrous.) Instead you get racism against X here, and racism against Y there. It's like saying the solution to seeing guys in a different uniform is to shoot them; it might be an okay method for war, but it's a shitty method for peace.
And I like peace. A lot.
All of this is why I'm trying my level best to not exaggerate the situation. That's why I say that I don't think there's a lot of zealous anti-white racists, but instead a small minority of the left. It is institutional, though; this is because a great many don't agree but tolerate them, and a great many more — like you — partially agree but put it further down your priority list. Nor is any of this anti-white racism particularly severe at the moment. My main worry is that it has the ear of the corporatist media and, so far, is broadly tolerated. I'd rather fight it while it's small, but as it is now no one wants to fight it — indeed, they want to defend it, because they've bought into the persecution narrative. And it's not difficult to fall for — it's more misleading truths than straight-up lies (although it does have plenty of the latter).
But I digress. My point is that I worry, and worry hard, that talking about things this way will encourage pro-white racism more than it encourages anti-racism. I don't want white people or men to think of themselves as victims in a system rigged against them. That's loser mentality, even if the system IS rigged against you. Don't be a victim, be a winner, goddamn it! Racism is for cowards; it's the defeatism of those who believe they can only win if they cheat as they believe their enemies cheat.
But I fear someone will read my words and decide to cheat anyway. It only takes a handful of cowards to lose a fight, as you predict. Hopefully more will choose a better path.
Nice post.
I seem to have the same long range hopes. In the meantime, here's the current tally.
U.S. Senate
25 women total 17 Democrat women and only 8 Republican women, 25% of 100 seats are women
U.S. House
102 women total 89 Democrat and a pitifully low only 13 Republican women, 23.4% of 435 seats are women
https://www.cawp.rutgers.edu/current-numbers
Racial diversity
The contrast is even greater for racial diversity. Democrats have nearly six times more minority members than the Republicans.
African-American 48 Democrats and 3 Republicans
Hispanic/Latino 30 Democrats and 13 Republicans
Asian/Indian/Pacific Islander 16 Democrats and 0 Republicans
Total 94 Democrats and 16 Republicans are minorities
Diversity in Congress: Democrats have women and minorities, Republicans have white men over 55?
So right now, Republicans in congress are the party of over 55 white male and Democrats are the party of the young, women, and minorities. (The young and old thing I just threw that in as a bonus bit of a troll.)
Why would these minorities want to be republican? I honestly do not believe they are purposely discarded because they are minorities but rather that because their value do not match republican value (kind of hard to want to go on a side that want to shit on you compared to going to a side that wants to empower you).
Build of the week #9 - Breaking your face with style http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_EcQDOUN9Y
IGN: Poltun
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Posted byfaerwin#5850on Apr 28, 2019, 1:18:41 AMAlpha Member
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faerwin wrote:
Why would these minorities want to be republican? I honestly do not believe they are purposely discarded because they are minorities but rather that because their value do not match republican value (kind of hard to want to go on a side that want to shit on you compared to going to a side that wants to empower you).
It's outrageous that you think Republicans want to shit on minorities.
Regarding "empowerment," it depends what you mean. As a general practice Democrats promise free stuff to certain groups; to minorities they often promise, but rarely deliver, even more free stuff. So if by "empower" you mean "bribe your constuency," then maybe.
For instance, if I was a US Representative I'd say Affirmative Action is a racist policy and attempt to dismantle it. I would expect opposition from certain black people, not because they'd be right on principle, but just because they'd be losing an unearned privilege.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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Posted byScrotieMcB#2697on Apr 28, 2019, 1:32:20 AM
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faerwin wrote:
Why would these minorities want to be republican? I honestly do not believe they are purposely discarded because they are minorities but rather that because their value do not match republican value (kind of hard to want to go on a side that want to shit on you compared to going to a side that wants to empower you).
Yes! That's the reason that the diversity is even greater for Democrats in the minority category.
Regarding the quotas, it has nothing to do with quotas! It has to do with fairness and representation. Which party has a fair representation? Neither but Democrats are doing much better. At 25% female in congress it is no where near any quota which would be close to 50%. That quota comment does not make any sense to me.
edit: The head of the Republican party wants to shit on minorities, especially minorities of the immigratant persuasion. (i.e., not wanting shithole country immigrants, instead wanting white immigrants from places like Norway.)
edit2: "In all, 57 percent of adults — including 8 in 10 blacks, three-quarters of Hispanics and almost half of all whites — say the nation’s leader is a racist, according to the poll." https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/03/01/ap-norc-poll-most-americans-say-trump-is-racist/?utm_term=.2bc52fff3cd6
edit3: Thanks to Biden harping on Charlottesville, that 57% figure will probably go up. :-) I saw a Don Lemon (CNN guy) video today playing up the Charlottesville "myth" as well. :-)
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired! Last edited by Turtledove#4014 on Apr 28, 2019, 2:41:45 AM
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Posted byTurtledove#4014on Apr 28, 2019, 1:38:47 AM
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Manocean wrote:
NZ: TRUMPS AMERICA IS AUTHORITARIAN AND FASCIST
NZ:
Yeah, sometimes it's good to be reminded of how much worse it could be; how much better off we are than the other so-called "first world countries".
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Posted bypneuma#0134on Apr 28, 2019, 1:39:19 AMAlpha Member
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Turtledove wrote:
It has to do with fairness and representation. Which party has a fair representation? Neither but Democrats are doing much better. At 25% female in congress it is no where near any quota which would be close to 50%. That quota comment does not make any sense to me.
Apparently you think not being racist means that if you've got 500 white people, 200 black people, 200 Hispanic people, 100 Asian people, and 10 leadership positions, you better get 5 white leaders, 2 black leaders, 2 Hispanic leaders, and 1 Asian leader to represent those ethnic groups. If you add one small tweak — don't have the leaders meet, just have them rule their people separately — that's what Richard Spencer believes in. If he's an ethnonationalist, you're an ethnofederalist.
I think race matters to a representative roughly as much as what their favorite genre of music is. I think gender matters to a representative roughly as much as whether they are a cat person or a dog person. So imagine you posted a breakdown of Congresspeople according to their taste in music and what kind of pet they prefer, and then said "we're getting closer to the proportions of the country overall, it's almost fair!"
No, it's not fair. It's arbitrary, bigoted and stupid.
What should decide proportional representation is differences of opinion over policy. It sucks we've only two viable political parties in the US, as policy differences should be far more nuanced, but it is what it is. Other than that, merit, not worthless shit like ethnicity or owning a dog, should determine placement.
@TDS_Deported: Just under 60% of Americans don't vote, and if you add in third-party voters that percentage goes over 60%. I was fair with Hillary; when people were saying she called a quarter of the country deplorable, I said "no, less than 20% of the US voted Trump, so she was only saying that about 10% of the population." Same principle applies here: even if you say Trump has declared all Democrats as enemies — and outlandish claim, but you are you — you can't claim more than about 20% of Americans.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Apr 28, 2019, 2:28:34 AM
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Posted byScrotieMcB#2697on Apr 28, 2019, 2:20:17 AM
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I'm happy to learn Chairman Kim is licking Trump's boots.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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Posted byScrotieMcB#2697on Apr 28, 2019, 2:43:16 AM
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"
Turtledove wrote:
"
ScrotieMcB wrote:
"
Turtledove wrote:
All things being equal in the last election I had tendency to vote for the minority or the female on the ballot.
So racist and sexist motivations aren't your primary considerations, they're low-priority tiebreakers for you. Well, at least that isn't very racist nor very sexist. My appreciation for your candor outweighs my disappointment.
"
Turtledove wrote:
The Democratic party will have great success against the Republicans, as long as the Republicans are the party for old white men (like me, 67 BTW) and the Democrats are the party for the young, for women and for minorities.
No party should be any more nor less for ethnic minorities than for white people. That makes political parties racist. "In this election, blacks and women won, and old white guys lost." Or vice versa. Neither is okay.
Additionally, the least racist party — technically, the one perceived as least racist, but ideally perception matches reality — has an advantage in a two-party system. Let's say one party is (perceived as) racist against black people and the other party isn't (perceived as) significantly racist against anyone (just some minor accidental stuff, because no one is perfect). If there's any blacks who are racist against non-black people, it's not rocket science who they're going to vote for, even if the second party doesn't cater to them even a tiny bit. (If you truly understand this you'll understand why the left is putting out anti-Semitic dog whistles, then backpedaling when they get too much heat for it.)
"
Turtledove wrote:
This reverse racism and sexist thing that you folks have going on will likely really help the Democrats.
I acknowledge that risk, and probably understand it a lot better than you do.
I know that the fringe right engages in pro-white racism and uses an anti-Semitic persecution narrative to justify that racism. By pointing to institutional racism and sexism against white males, I understand that I'm partially agreeing with them on the problem (although definitely not the anti-Semitic half). I don't like publicly agreeing with them on anything, because I don't like confirming their narrative, even partially.
My most important point of disagreement with them is on the solution. They believe the answer to racism against whites is racism against non-whites. I don't think racism and reverse racism work that way, like matter and antimatter where one cleanly cancels out the other. (Even in physics that's a myth; the energy created is enormous and disastrous.) Instead you get racism against X here, and racism against Y there. It's like saying the solution to seeing guys in a different uniform is to shoot them; it might be an okay method for war, but it's a shitty method for peace.
And I like peace. A lot.
All of this is why I'm trying my level best to not exaggerate the situation. That's why I say that I don't think there's a lot of zealous anti-white racists, but instead a small minority of the left. It is institutional, though; this is because a great many don't agree but tolerate them, and a great many more — like you — partially agree but put it further down your priority list. Nor is any of this anti-white racism particularly severe at the moment. My main worry is that it has the ear of the corporatist media and, so far, is broadly tolerated. I'd rather fight it while it's small, but as it is now no one wants to fight it — indeed, they want to defend it, because they've bought into the persecution narrative. And it's not difficult to fall for — it's more misleading truths than straight-up lies (although it does have plenty of the latter).
But I digress. My point is that I worry, and worry hard, that talking about things this way will encourage pro-white racism more than it encourages anti-racism. I don't want white people or men to think of themselves as victims in a system rigged against them. That's loser mentality, even if the system IS rigged against you. Don't be a victim, be a winner, goddamn it! Racism is for cowards; it's the defeatism of those who believe they can only win if they cheat as they believe their enemies cheat.
But I fear someone will read my words and decide to cheat anyway. It only takes a handful of cowards to lose a fight, as you predict. Hopefully more will choose a better path.
Nice post.
I seem to have the same long range hopes. In the meantime, here's the current tally.
U.S. Senate
25 women total 17 Democrat women and only 8 Republican women, 25% of 100 seats are women
U.S. House
102 women total 89 Democrat and a pitifully low only 13 Republican women, 23.4% of 435 seats are women
https://www.cawp.rutgers.edu/current-numbers
Racial diversity
The contrast is even greater for racial diversity. Democrats have nearly six times more minority members than the Republicans.
African-American 48 Democrats and 3 Republicans
Hispanic/Latino 30 Democrats and 13 Republicans
Asian/Indian/Pacific Islander 16 Democrats and 0 Republicans
Total 94 Democrats and 16 Republicans are minorities
Diversity in Congress: Democrats have women and minorities, Republicans have white men over 55?
So right now, Republicans in congress are the party of over 55 white male and Democrats are the party of the young, women, and minorities. (The young and old thing I just threw that in as a bonus bit of a troll.)
"race and genders shouldn't be primary atributes for legislators, but their stances on certain fundamental moral principles and current geo/national politic issues as well as the direction for the future"
"yes, i agree, here is a representation of the current race and gender in congress"
Ideology are the horse-blinders of morality and rational i suppose.
Peace,
-Boem-
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
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Posted byBoem#2861on Apr 28, 2019, 3:00:47 AMOn Probation
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
[snip a bunch of quota nonsense]
I already responded to that quota nonsense.
Republicans are being "labeled" the party that hates minorities, because of the leader of the Republican party. "In all, 57 percent of adults — including 8 in 10 blacks, three-quarters of Hispanics and almost half of all whites — say the nation’s leader is a racist, according to the poll." https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/03/01/ap-norc-poll-most-americans-say-trump-is-racist/?utm_term=.2bc52fff3cd6
Thanks to Biden harping on Charlottesville, that 57% figure will probably go up. :-)
Today I saw Don Lemon (a CNN guy) playing up the Charlottesville "myth" as well. :-) It was very amusing, I thought. His revisionist history section was some nonsense that was extra funny not sure what he meant but I think he had some things incorrect in there.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/04/27/president-trump-joe-biden-revisits-charlottesville-don-lemon-sot-ctn-vpx.cnn
Paraphrasing Trump said, "Many generals have told me that Robert E Lee is their favorite general." Does anyone actually believe that?
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
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Posted byTurtledove#4014on Apr 28, 2019, 3:04:51 AM
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The_Impeacher wrote:
Anyway, what the heck is going on with this video still frame? 
Trump explained it in the Easter egg hunt speech he gave to the kids of the White House correspondent's corp. You know the speech where he spent most of the time insulting the kids' parents. He said that they try to take pictures of him that make him look bad. That's a picture of Trump looking much fatter than he pretends to be.
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired! Last edited by Turtledove#4014 on Apr 28, 2019, 3:14:10 AM
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Posted byTurtledove#4014on Apr 28, 2019, 3:13:09 AM
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