ALL HAIL PRESIDENT TRUMP

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pneuma wrote:

Speech is not violence.

The law disagrees with you even in the US. EVer heard of call-to-action?

And internationally you signed up to the UN bill of human rights, which guarantees freedom of expression UNLESS it violates the other basic human rights, like the right to be free from persecution.

Many countries have adopted hate crime/hate speech laws, in a fairly lax sensible manner, where the court judges usually have the final say.

Protecting freedom of speech to say bigoted racist things is not noble at all, quite the contrary. Inciting racial hatred against a minority by a public figure is usually the norm for such cases.

I doubt any of this makes one iota of difference to the constitutionalists who still think their piece of paper is infallible and up to date in 2019. See gun control and gun crime in the US for another such example, that causes great harm this day.

On a related note, why don't you guys just leave the UN?

You're doing more harm than good at this point with your veto and watering down of important agreements.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/trump-administration-un-resolution-rape-war-abortion-france-ambassador-a8884021.html?utm_source=reddit.com

“It is intolerable and incomprehensible that the Security Council is incapable of acknowledging that women and girls who suffered from sexual violence in conflict – and who obviously didn’t choose to become pregnant – should have the right to terminate their pregnancy,” he said.

“We are appalled by the fact that a state has demanded the withdrawal of the reference to sexual and reproductive health – a challenge to 25 years of achievements in favour of women’s rights in situations of armed conflict.”

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Turtledove wrote:

Mueller investigated the Russian connection. You are wrong that he turned up bunk though.

Mueller concluded that the Russian's interference in the 2016 election was in sweeping and systematic. The administration has said that the Russians are expected to be doing the same thing in 2020 that they did in 2016. Trump has prevented the administration from protecting us in the 2020 election though. Presumably because he wants Russian help again in 2020.

Mueller also laid out 10 really strong cases and 2 less strong cases of Trump breaking the law to obstruct the Mueller investigation.

Now Trump has declared that he will obstruct congress from investigating Russian interference in our elections as well as anything else that congress has a right to investigate.

You mean Mueller found no conspiracy or coordination with Russians and found that Trump has tried to protect his presidency (not even himself because he did nothing wrong as Mueller has proven) from a politial coup. Shocking!

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pneuma wrote:

The first amendment is very clear about the importance of speech. It makes no distinction for hate speech, nor should it. If this bothers you, if you can't accept living by the rules in front of you, you should try to civilly change the rules by getting 2/3 of the House and Senate on your side or 3/4 of 2/3 of the states. You will probably find this a difficult task, though, since your stance is about as insane as anything Alex Jones has ever put out.

That argument won't work because commies hate the constitution. They'd rip it in half if they could.

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Xavderion wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

The first amendment is very clear about the importance of speech. It makes no distinction for hate speech, nor should it. If this bothers you, if you can't accept living by the rules in front of you, you should try to civilly change the rules by getting 2/3 of the House and Senate on your side or 3/4 of 2/3 of the states. You will probably find this a difficult task, though, since your stance is about as insane as anything Alex Jones has ever put out.

That argument won't work because commies hate the constitution. They'd rip it in half if they could.

Who exactly is a commie? Do you have many communists in the US or wherever you are?

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Xavderion wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Mueller investigated the Russian connection. You are wrong that he turned up bunk though.

Mueller concluded that the Russian's interference in the 2016 election was in sweeping and systematic. The administration has said that the Russians are expected to be doing the same thing in 2020 that they did in 2016. Trump has prevented the administration from protecting us in the 2020 election though. Presumably because he wants Russian help again in 2020.

Mueller also laid out 10 really strong cases and 2 less strong cases of Trump breaking the law to obstruct the Mueller investigation.

Now Trump has declared that he will obstruct congress from investigating Russian interference in our elections as well as anything else that congress has a right to investigate.

You mean Mueller found no conspiracy or coordination with Russians and found that Trump has tried to protect his presidency (not even himself because he did nothing wrong as Mueller has proven) from a politial coup. Shocking!

Good lord, it's literally like talking to a Flat Earther. ALternative facts, my ass.

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rojimboo wrote:

Good lord, it's literally like talking to a Flat Earther. ALternative facts, my ass.

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Xavderion wrote:

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rojimboo wrote:

Good lord, it's literally like talking to a Flat Earther. ALternative facts, my ass.

Spoiler

Apparently the alt-lite/right can't meme either.

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pneuma wrote:

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Budget_player_cadet wrote:

It's punching a nazi so hard and so often that he no longer wants to be a nazi (in public anyways).

When you go to jail for assault or harassment, I'll be sure to write you a note. Acting like a thug doesn't do a single good thing.

Speech is not violence.

Firstly: it made Richard Spencer shut up and go away; that's at least one very good thing!

Secondly: the case for nazi-punching (and direct antifascist action in general) boils down to the fact that Nazi speech inevitably has violence as an end goal. We know these beliefs, we recognize what they are about, and in case there's any doubt, we've got the editor of the daily stormer here to explain:

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"The unindoctrinated should not be able to tell if we are joking or not. There should also be a conscious awareness of mocking stereotypes of hateful racists. I usually think of this as self-deprecating humor - I am a racist making fun of stereotype of racists, because I don't take myself super-seriously.

This is obviously a ploy and I actually do want to gas kikes. But that’s neither here nor there.

(Bolding mine.)

Spencer himself calls for a "peaceful ethnic cleansing", which is an oxymoron - you cannot get a "peaceful ethnic cleansing", and if you trust him when he says he believes that, you haven't learned the first thing about talking to fascists, which is that fascists always lie. Achieving his goals would require the forcible relocation or murder of millions. And this is always, always, always the end state of neo-nazi fascists. They want a white ethnostate in a pluralistic country. You cannot get that without mass murder.

This is why I support punching nazis. This is why, given the chance, I will always do what I can to make people suffer for being nazis. These ideas are not harmless. Those supporting or spreading them are not harmless. They are aiding and abetting a political philosophy that wants me, my family, and many of my friends dead simply because of who we are, and which, given the chance, will absolutely try to kill us.

In short:

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The ramblings of the insane and the propagandists will never go away. Believe it or not, you can't punch speech out of existence. It can't be regulated out of existence, either. If any speech is allowed whatsoever, some of it will be insane or propagandistic.

If we're going to talk about the ethics of antifascist action, we should talk about the ethics.

If we're going to talk about the effectiveness of antifascist action, we should talk about the effectiveness.

Mixing the two up just leaves us confused. As I keep saying, again and again, the reason antifascists do this is because it works. Deplatforming works. Punching nazis works. The alt-right has, in many ways, fallen apart since 2017, and most of that has to do with antifascist organizing and direct action. It turns out that LARPing as a nazi over the weekend is a lot less fun when the odds are good that you'll have to explain it to your friends, family, and employer on monday morning. If you want to say that it's immoral despite that, okay, but let's not say that it's immoral because it doesn't work anyways. That's just not true.

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The effectiveness of propaganda increases as discourse is closed, though. The fewer people that are allowed to talk about differing opinions, the more people are isolated (increasingly alone on the internet, nowadays) and easily swayed by propaganda.

This is the exact opposite of how this works. Like, literally exactly the opposite of how radicalization online works. People are most effectively radicalized in large communities with similar goals. When they are isolated, it's very hard to radicalize them. When they cannot state their opinions plainly in any venue, it's both hard for those opinions to spread and they get the signal that it's not okay to hold those opinions - which is absolutely true for nazis, as it turns out. That's often enough to convince them that they should change, assuming they're not literally earning a paycheck by being awful like Spencer or Jones are.

This kind of radicalization actually happens when you create a large echo chamber to parrot those views. When you increasingly convince people, "this is normal, this is fine, go ahead, keep hating on women, it's only natural to fear people not like you, here are some (bogus, but I'm not going to tell you that) statistics to back up your prejudice". When there's a community built around this shared grievance. Case in point: incels. The community wasn't always so deeply fucked in the head. But once it allowed and encouraged misogynistic rhetoric, and created a filter bubble, things got really nasty really quickly.

Please, if you don't know how radicalization works (and you don't), don't hold court on it.

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rojimboo wrote:

Apparently the alt-lite/right can't meme either.

That's an unpolitical meme, grandpa.