ALL HAIL PRESIDENT TRUMP

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Raycheetah wrote:

Reporting other posters in this thread is kinda lame. We all know what we've signed up for by posting in it; calling in the forum cops because someone else was naughty is pretty weaksauce. =9[.]9=

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Xavderion wrote:

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Raycheetah wrote:

Reporting other posters in this thread is kinda lame. We all know what we've signed up for by posting in it; calling in the forum cops because someone else was naughty is pretty weaksauce. =9[.]9=

I've been specifically told that I should report instead of retaliate because the latter would get me banned. Super lame tbh.

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Boem wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Boem wrote:

Not really, my point was that human rights have been violated continuesly in Turkey and nobody condemned it.(thus it is not really a right in that geographical location)

It's called a double standart.

All that I was arguing was that human rights existed in Turkey. You argued that they didn't exist because they were violated. Then I argued that violation of those human rights did not mean that they didn't exist, it meant they needed to be strengthened.

Your position that they didn't exist really made no sense. Even from the perspective of your statement above. If they didn't even exist then how the heck can you say that something that doesn't exist is being violated?

Anyway, I'm sorry I brought it up, you obviously are thinking about it in a way that makes no sense to me.

You argued trump needed to pay "lip service" to the notion of human rights and condemn it's violation.

That's called "a double standart".

For example, obama had no problems with supporting a president that shut down freedom of speach for two years during the period he did a campaign to get himself ellected as president and reform the consitution and power structure in turkey.

Absorb the bolted part please. Turkey went from a democratic republic to a presidential republic.(2017, with backing from the obama legislation up to 2016)

Erdogan arrested roughly 58% of the turkey military(position of military control) which historically have always stepped up in the past 80 years to control any power-plays from the goverment.
He arrested a big part of the juridicial system and journalist's and public paper institutions that ran against him(in the public opinion).

And all of this happened roughly within 2 hours after a coup broke out in Turkey. Which gives high credibility to the argument that it was a hitlist and staged to take control of the structure prior to the elections.

There has not been a single case in human history where a nation-wide coup has been "dealth" with in under 5 hours.

Yet i don't sense any outrage from you about that at all.

Because for some weird reason, Obama good when he fascilitates the downfall of a democracy and trump bad when he just remains silent.

I will restate the earlier part, double standarts.

I will judge both and say both good and bad things depending on what they do but judged by the same standart.

I call that integrity of character.

Just like i call out Xav in this thread for posting triggering meme's for the purpose of triggering, i do the same with kellog acting in bad faith.

As for the human rights point of view that i have, i can use the analogy with weed regulation in my country for example.
The laws are in place, it's illegal, yet cops don't arrest people that infringe on it, it is public knowledge that the law is just there to discourage.

The law has a goal and an aim and it can be utilized in the court of law, but it rarely if ever does.

Does that make weed illegal, most certainly it does, are people arrested for it? Not really, only the most gross offenders and usually in relation to other laws(human trafficking, hard drug infringements etc)

Human rights is the same deal, it is infringed upon constantly but only the most gross offenders get punished and usually for other motivations unrelated to human rights to substantiate actions against the offenders.

I already mentioned to you that over 10.000 human right violations sanctioned by the court of human rights have not been enacted.
And that most nations have laws that circumvent the enactment of sanctions from that court.(which means they can independently overrule the verdict if they see fit)
Which makes the whole thing what i call "an air castle". Not sure if that translates well in english.

Your equating sentiment for actual enforced law.
Human rights are arbitrarely enforced by law, that doesn't mean we should let go of the sentiment behind them or the believe it instills in people to strive and achieve it.

Do we hold the sentiment that all people have the right to live? Live a good and trouble free live? Be previe to education? That children and women should be protected above all else?etc etc

Of course we do.

Is that enforced by law across the board equally without fail? No, we still have a long way to go assuming it is actually attainable which i have doubts about. I think it's and ideal and the world doesn't seem to work well with ideals since they lead to extremism.

I will end with this, enforcement of law in a nation itself is quite "easy", but enforcing your law and ideals onto other nations has turned out badly in history.(enforcing should raise a red flag, when human freedom is at play)

Lead by example seems to be the best form to actually achieve such a desire and has done wonders for systems that function.(markets as a concept being adopted cross ideology seems like a fair example that comes to mind)

Peace,

-Boem-

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Turtledove wrote:

Sorry, you are not really making any sense to me. It is all a totally different topic as to whether or not there is such a thing as the human right to life.

You are also being ridiculous to blame Erdogan taking unprecedented power in Turkey on Obama. You falsely assert that I said a whole bunch of crap about Obama that I never said. You falsely assert that I said a whole bunch of crap about Turkey that I never said and don't even believe.

There is such a thing as the human right to life in Turkey. It is in the Turkey constitution. PERIOD. The other stuff is really irrelevant to that simple fact. You can't say that Turkey violates human rights on one side of your face and then on the other side of your face say that human rights do not exist in Turkey. It is not possible to violate something that doesn't even exist. To me it is an absurd position to take.

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The Constitution asserts that Turkey is a secular (2.1) and democratic (2.1) republic (1.1) that derives its sovereignty (6.1) from the people. The sovereignty rests with the Turkish Nation, who delegates its exercise to an elected unicameral parliament, the Turkish Grand National Assembly.

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Boem wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Sorry, you are not really making any sense to me. It is all a totally different topic as to whether or not there is such a thing as the human right to life.

You are also being ridiculous to blame Erdogan taking unprecedented power in Turkey on Obama. You falsely assert that I said a whole bunch of crap about Obama that I never said. You falsely assert that I said a whole bunch of crap about Turkey that I never said and don't even believe.

There is such a thing as the human right to life in Turkey. It is in the Turkey constitution. PERIOD. The other stuff is really irrelevant to that simple fact. You can't say that Turkey violates human rights on one side of your face and then on the other side of your face say that human rights do not exist in Turkey. It is not possible to violate something that doesn't even exist. To me it is an absurd position to take.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Turkey

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The Constitution asserts that Turkey is a secular (2.1) and democratic (2.1) republic (1.1) that derives its sovereignty (6.1) from the people. The sovereignty rests with the Turkish Nation, who delegates its exercise to an elected unicameral parliament, the Turkish Grand National Assembly.

It no longer being a democratic republic seems kind of weird if that's the premise from which to build the entire document on.
Moving away from secularism seems problematic as-well.

And it all bases it's intrinsic sovereignty from the people.(as is regular for a democratic society)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Turkish_constitutional_referendum
Good stuff.

Btw i didn't imply you made claims about obama or turkey at all.

I am providing aditional information around the subject itself that is relevant to the discussion.

And to strenghthen my position that your using a double standart when judging trump on his actions.

My claim is fairly simple, a constitution in a compromised corrupt region holds no relevant value to the people in it's territory.
Maybe you want to make that claim, but then i would direct that statement to the tens of thousands of people put into prison without a trial in 2016.
(a fair trial, being one of the basic principles of a non-corrupt juridicial system comming from the "innocent before proven guilty" basis we use to justify locking away people)

That the guide-lines of the human rights charter have been breached, i could agree on, but those are not laws just guide-lines or sentiments we strive for.
since again, they are not enforceable.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Turtledove wrote:

Trump should condemn the people that committed that murder. If Obama had refused to condemn a murder of a USA citizen by another country then I would say the same thing.

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Turtledove wrote:

Like I've said many times. Just because a right is violated, it doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist. I pointed to the exact spot in the new Turkey constitution where the right to life was explicitly stated as a right.

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According to the Human Rights Watch 2019 report, Turkey has the maximum number of jailed journalists. In February 2018, prominent journalists Ahmet Altan, Mehmet Altan and Nazlı Ilıcak were sentenced to life imprisonment without parole on the couped charges.[71]

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faerwin wrote:

Personally, I think that those that truly abuse the system should end up paying after a number of visits. If you keep having to visit the hospital because you make overdoses or get alcohol poisoning, you should end up with the bill. This might discourage a few to do dumb shit if they have to fork a few thousands. Most likely they won't and they'll end up paying but at least, it's gonna be money for #3


Which is improvement of old techniques and technologies. An example of this is my dad having to go to a follow-up call to get news on his operation. The meeting lasted about 5 minutes and could have easily been done on the phone or with skype (I say skype out of convenience). This kind of stuff takes pointless time out of the day for both the doctor and for the patient.