ALL HAIL PRESIDENT TRUMP

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Xavderion wrote:

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You yourself fall for the pathological liar's lies. For example, IIRC, you parroted the lie that the Russian investigation was started because of the Steele dossier. The truth is that the FBI investigation was started because George Papadopoulos told an Australian diplomat in London that the Russians were breaking into Clinton campaign computers and stealing emails. The Australian then told the FBI which kicked off the investigation. This all happened before the Steele dossier.

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On or about May 10, 2016, at London's Kensington Wine Rooms, Papadopoulos told the top Australian diplomat to the United Kingdom, Alexander Downer, that Russia was in possession of emails relating to Clinton. In July, after the DNC hacking had become known, the Australians told U.S. authorities about Papadopoulos's comment, leading the Federal Bureau of Investigation to open a counterintelligence investigation into the Donald Trump presidential campaign on July 31, 2016.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Papadopoulos#Involvement_in_Donald_Trump's_presidential_campaign

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Russia_dossier

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Turtledove wrote:

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Xavderion wrote:

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You yourself fall for the pathological liar's lies. For example, IIRC, you parroted the lie that the Russian investigation was started because of the Steele dossier. The truth is that the FBI investigation was started because George Papadopoulos told an Australian diplomat in London that the Russians were breaking into Clinton campaign computers and stealing emails. The Australian then told the FBI which kicked off the investigation. This all happened before the Steele dossier.

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On or about May 10, 2016, at London's Kensington Wine Rooms, Papadopoulos told the top Australian diplomat to the United Kingdom, Alexander Downer, that Russia was in possession of emails relating to Clinton. In July, after the DNC hacking had become known, the Australians told U.S. authorities about Papadopoulos's comment, leading the Federal Bureau of Investigation to open a counterintelligence investigation into the Donald Trump presidential campaign on July 31, 2016.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Papadopoulos#Involvement_in_Donald_Trump's_presidential_campaign

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Russia_dossier

You are
1. assuming particular conclusions from the evidence that are in dispute — according to what I could google,

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Papadopoulos has used Twitter and media interviews to claim the Downer drinks were a set up, the former Australian foreign affairs minister recorded their conversation and the Australian and British governments "were illegally spying on the Trump campaign".

and
2. Completely misrepresenting a key fact you quoted: the FBI investigation was opened on July 31 AFTER Christopher Steele had already been briefed by FBI agents (Source: WaPo), NOT on May 10 when the London meeting occurred.

So I think a better, more fair way of stating your position would be: "The FBI claims it started its investigation on July 31, 2016 due to receiving allegations that month from Australian authorities about a May 10 meeting in London between Australian diplomat Alexander Downer and then-Trump aide George Papadopoulos, in which the Australians alleged that Papadopoulos told them Russians had dirt on Clinton. Because Christopher Steele compiled the Fusion GPS dossier in June 2016 and is known to have briefed the FBI on it in July 2016, it's not certain how much each of these factors had to do with the opening of the investigation, but I still believe Comey's FBI, especially when it tells me things I like to hear."

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WHICH is more likely:

a serial grifter, a real estate mogul from New York known for dodgy financial practices with a long, easily-traced history of deceiving others who lives by mottos like 'never admit you're wrong' and 'always be the loudest, biggest person in the room', whose books have been debunked as ghost-written, whose many business ventures have either crashed and burned or had to be bailed out one way or another...who went to great lengths to create an idealised version of himself on a reality TV show...rising to power in an era of intolerance and continuing his practice of lying and exaggerating, of self-inflating and cajoling but on a national or global scale...;

OR

Um, you didn't include any allegations about election meddling or Russians or anything. So is it likely that Trump won the 2016 election? Yes. All the extra pejoratives in there are just like your opinion man.

It's a real shame you're so triggered that your actual aim here is incomprehensible.

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an establishment that has for decades, certainly from before said grifter's time, prided itself on telling the truth behind what people hear and see, on exposing corruption and abuse (Deep Throat, Spotlight, etc), attracted some of the finest speakers and writers in modern history to contribute, a largely nebulous entity full of internal contention but held together by a spirit of investigation, deduction and observation...suddenly turning into liars and deceivers just because they don't like the aforementioned individual?

They were turned into liars and deceivers in 2002 when they uncritically sold Americans bogus intelligence from the CIA to justify an invasion of a foreign country that killed hundreds of thousands of people.

Now that isn't PROOF that the media are lying to you now. But as of 2002 they clearly were no longer the venerated institution of your nostalgia. Savvy minds like that wouldn't pass on information with those kinds of consequences without investigating it first. But journalists like that are dead or retired, sadly. Or worse, corrupted. So it's more a case of an institution that you know has lied to you in the past, and not a little white lie but a thousands-die kinda lie, but you've totally forgiven them now and you believe they wouldn't lie to you again. I can't imagine myself ever being that trusting.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Xavderion wrote:

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You yourself fall for the pathological liar's lies. For example, IIRC, you parroted the lie that the Russian investigation was started because of the Steele dossier. The truth is that the FBI investigation was started because George Papadopoulos told an Australian diplomat in London that the Russians were breaking into Clinton campaign computers and stealing emails. The Australian then told the FBI which kicked off the investigation. This all happened before the Steele dossier.

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On or about May 10, 2016, at London's Kensington Wine Rooms, Papadopoulos told the top Australian diplomat to the United Kingdom, Alexander Downer, that Russia was in possession of emails relating to Clinton. In July, after the DNC hacking had become known, the Australians told U.S. authorities about Papadopoulos's comment, leading the Federal Bureau of Investigation to open a counterintelligence investigation into the Donald Trump presidential campaign on July 31, 2016.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Papadopoulos#Involvement_in_Donald_Trump's_presidential_campaign

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Russia_dossier

Wtf dude, you even bolded the important parts. The investigation started after the dossier. First you can't read a simple chart and now this.

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Xavderion wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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Xavderion wrote:

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You yourself fall for the pathological liar's lies. For example, IIRC, you parroted the lie that the Russian investigation was started because of the Steele dossier. The truth is that the FBI investigation was started because George Papadopoulos told an Australian diplomat in London that the Russians were breaking into Clinton campaign computers and stealing emails. The Australian then told the FBI which kicked off the investigation. This all happened before the Steele dossier.

"

On or about May 10, 2016, at London's Kensington Wine Rooms, Papadopoulos told the top Australian diplomat to the United Kingdom, Alexander Downer, that Russia was in possession of emails relating to Clinton. In July, after the DNC hacking had become known, the Australians told U.S. authorities about Papadopoulos's comment, leading the Federal Bureau of Investigation to open a counterintelligence investigation into the Donald Trump presidential campaign on July 31, 2016.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Papadopoulos#Involvement_in_Donald_Trump's_presidential_campaign

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Russia_dossier

Wtf dude, you even bolded the important parts. The investigation started after the dossier. First you can't read a simple chart and now this.

Not really true, the dossier was a series of memos. That was just the date for the first one. Perhaps more definitive though.

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Former FBI Director James Comey testified before the House Judiciary Committee in December 2018, describing the origins of the Russia investigation. He described how the investigation initially looked at four Americans, and that it was not prompted by the dossier, but by comments made by Trump foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos. "It was weeks or months later that the so-called Steele dossier came to our attention," he added. He also said that Obama had "never ordered him to have the FBI surveil or infiltrate the Trump campaign."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Russia_dossier#The_FBI's_Russia_investigation

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Turtledove wrote:

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Former FBI Director James Comey testified before the House Judiciary Committee in December 2018, describing the origins of the Russia investigation. He described how the investigation initially looked at four Americans, and that it was not prompted by the dossier, but by comments made by Trump foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos. "It was weeks or months later that the so-called Steele dossier came to our attention," he added. He also said that Obama had "never ordered him to have the FBI surveil or infiltrate the Trump campaign."

Looks like Comey lied under oath (quelle surprise) because Australia told the FBI what Papa D said in the end of July, while Steele had a first meeting with the FBI several weeks beforehand.

In other news, it's an abstract kind of winning (I honestly don't get the point of this):

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-22/supreme-court-lets-trump-s-transgender-military-ban-take-effect

Reminder that RBG is out this year and crazy catholic lady is in. 6-3 decisions soon!

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Turtledove wrote:

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Former FBI Director James Comey testified before the House Judiciary Committee in December 2018, describing the origins of the Russia investigation. He described how the investigation initially looked at four Americans, and that it was not prompted by the dossier, but by comments made by Trump foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos. "It was weeks or months later that the so-called Steele dossier came to our attention," he added. He also said that Obama had "never ordered him to have the FBI surveil or infiltrate the Trump campaign."

Well the " or months" part of that is certainly bullshit.

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Xavderion wrote:

Looks like Comey lied under oath (quelle surprise) because Australia told the FBI what Papa D said in the end of July, while Steele had a first meeting with the FBI several weeks beforehand.

Sources for that? I know both the initial Steele-FBI briefing and the receipt of Australian allegations by the FBI were in July 2016, but I don't have a hard date for either. Obviously both happened on or before July 31, when the investigation formally opened.

But even if the Steele briefing happened first, it's not clear that the FBI didn't prioritize the Australian allegations in its rationale. Ultimately either claim is an attempt to mindread FBI leadership. I think the most honest answer us that BOTH influenced opening the investigation, and the official reason given was the Australian allegations (for obvious optics reasons).

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Sources for that? I know both the initial Steele-FBI briefing and the receipt of Australian allegations by the FBI were in July 2016, but I don't have a hard date for either. Obviously both happened on or before July 31, when the investigation formally opened.

Steele met with the FBI on July 5th as per the source you linked on the page before. The investigation was launched July 31st. Australia told the FBI about Papa D after Wikileaks started releasing the emails, which was on July 22nd. So somewhere between July 22nd and July 31st Australia told the FBI about Papa D.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/29/how-far-back-do-the-threads-of-the-investigation-into-trump-and-russia-actually-go/?utm_term=.debe3556fa6f

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Democratic_National_Committee_email_leak#Contents_of_leak

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Xavderion wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Sources for that? I know both the initial Steele-FBI briefing and the receipt of Australian allegations by the FBI were in July 2016, but I don't have a hard date for either. Obviously both happened on or before July 31, when the investigation formally opened.

Steele met with the FBI on July 5th as per the source you linked on the page before. The investigation was launched July 31st. Australia told the FBI about Papa D after Wikileaks started releasing the emails, which was on July 22nd. So somewhere between July 22nd and July 31st Australia told the FBI about Papa D.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/29/how-far-back-do-the-threads-of-the-investigation-into-trump-and-russia-actually-go/?utm_term=.debe3556fa6f

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Democratic_National_Committee_email_leak#Contents_of_leak

OK. I should probably read what I link in entirety. Good stuff.

BTW here's a link to the Steele dossier: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3259984-Trump-Intelligence-Allegations.html. Some reports are dated later, but the first entry is dated 20 June 2016, meaning Steele would have shared it on July 5. It includes the "pissgate" nonsense.