On Balance Feedback and Charge Changes

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BerntNilsen wrote:

At 1000 hours played you're still a rookie in path of exile.

Hmm, i have a lot more, a lot. But... still not forcing myself to be top-top player. So 1k hours is not a criteria. I will say - a least dozens 90+ HC/SSF chars, then yes, it can have a skills :)

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WarcryLegion wrote:

It is clear that reddit has genuinely upset Chris in this situation.

However he is right:

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We communicated poorly about the changes and their motivation.

This is legit one of the core reasons this was received so negatively. There was such a minimal degree of communication for such a large change, which in the eyes of many, myself included, makes little to no sense from a design perspective, hence the QA roast.

As for my own two cents, the charge and ailment changes do really simply make no sense. The rest of the changes I don't have too much of a problem with, but the fact that not only are the charge changes limiting build diversity and breaking existing mechanics as well as uniques (such as traps), but at the same time the ailment changes make no mathematical sense, this is truly mind boggling.

It's hilarious how all you idiots keep saying it's bad design because it "limits build diversity" without giving any actual examples how it does this. Almost every single build this affects either got slightly nerfed (crit) or just needs to path different for pretty much the exact same effect. And the benefits are much better letting GGG add more mechanics that aren't a problem because every build uses frenzy charges being the 0 downside more multi they were.

The builds that are actually affected by this no one is bringing up. Spell Poison, RF, DD all got hurt (especially DD which uses traps and is a damage threshold mechanic so 20% damage loss is big).

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GGG_Neon wrote:

Shock and Chill

The changes to Shock and Chill needed more balance put into them and I regret and apologize that we couldn't have delivered it with more accurate values at the time. We of course will be making these ailments much better than what is currently on Beta. This includes changes to Skills, Passives and to the values for determining the strength of applied Shocks and Chills. It should be the case that with builds that rely on hits for dealing damage you can apply reasonably powerful Chill and Shock values to Map Bosses (even with their increased life values) with well-built characters. It should also be the case that normal, magic and on occasion rare monsters with that same level of character power will frequently be getting shocked as they were prior, for full value but with more reliable durations.

There will be more details to come on the Chill and Shock changes as mentioned above soon. We have discussed them thoroughly and I will be making those changes within the next day or two.

Flasks

The Vessel of Vinktar now applies a much weaker Shock Aura to enemies, and no longer has mana leech during the flask effect. To confirm, we have not made any surprise changes to Diamond Flasks.

Charges

We will re-evaluate the Power and Frenzy charges situation over the weekend. It would be very useful to hear your explanation of why certain builds or items have been damaged (or improved too much) by the change, with specifics and explanations. Many of the posts so far have just said "X is ruined". While the initial feedback has been somewhat helpful, proper discussion and analysis from the community will really help us fine-tune (or abandon) this change.

I've sent an email to support@grindinggear.com to ask if the cloud part of Caustic Arrow is considered "attack". Here is my feedback: If it's not, then you are killing an almost killed skill. Caustic Arrow is an skill that deals very low damage, and one of the things you need to improve it are Frenzy charges. I've min-maxed an Scion level 96 build with best in slot items, and even so I cannot kill top end bosses with it. Even not-end ones are quite difficult. The problem gets worse as their life is being dramatically increased in 3.0.
If you are telling us that your design, balance and QA team are experts at Path of Exile, then ask them to test that skill in the new charge conditions. I'll honestly doubt they'll manage to get half the results as they get with other skills with the same investment.

Also, can you tell us if your design, balance and QA team are experts at Path of Exile, how did they miss the fact that the new trapper chest becomes dead on release?

i think nerfs are great this game has become to easy and too many players are used to that, i like a tough poe. the issue is we have had too much power creep since ascendacy, and ppl freak out about nerfs, stop crying, battle down and get on with it.

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Chris wrote:

While processing player feedback in preparation for 3.0.0, we found four requests that we could address simultaneously with our proposed charge changes:

• Nerf total crit chance available. It was getting too close to cap, too easily.
• Nerf the Assassin. This was frequently requested.
• Provide more uses for power charges on spellcasters (especially non-crit ones).
• Make it less mandatory for general damage dealers to invest in frenzy charges.

We recently made these charge changes in the beta, and received an immediate negative reaction from a vocal portion of the community. While we firmly stand behind the intention of this change, it's very clear that the community not only misunderstood a lot of the consequences, but also generally didn't like the direction of the change.

[...]

Thank you for your time, support and occasional overreactions. We expect nothing less <3

Sorry Chris, but it doesn't work like this. While you did fix those listed problems, you also damaged a lot more. Build diversity being the first thing.
So, again, the list:
- I agree with crit change. But then again, charges are used by everyone in similar matter. This should stay, no matter if they give 50% or 30% crit chance.
- Then nerf the Assassin. Like, I dunno, his Ascendancy tree. Charges are incorporated in a lot other things than simply Assassin.
- Add effects to spells, then? Per charge, add charge usage, I dunno.
- It isn't mandatory. It is a choice that player can make. Nowadays there is simply not enough other choices to make. It may be caused by too much resources to spend in end-game (points, Ascendancy and gear) or too few other choices to scale damage. Also, investment is too small to get them going (Blood Rage).
Making them attack only doesn't fix that problem at all, but only covers it. Might as well just remove them and say that we no longer have problem with Frenzy Charges. We won't. But we will also be missing another puzzle to build creation.
It reminds me of Atziri's ignite immunity - while you fixed the problem of her getting rekt by ignite, you did not fix the problem of ignite itself that way.
You are shooting at the wrong thing.

As for the last bit - while I mostly find your responses cheerful and overall fun, for some reason this one doesn't feel that great. :V I mean, it almost sounds like you are feeling that community is always overreacting and that your development team can do no bad. Lets be honest here - if that was the case, there would be no double dipping, no ES supremacy, no broken ass Ascendancies or Ascendant.
You made a lot of stupid mistakes in the past and you will make mistakes, and people will point them out. It is up to you what you will do with them. If you take them as people (only) overreacting, you may be on a one way track to other development teams that were thinking they can do no bad. Sure, there are people who will deny everything (or agree to everything), but I'm gonna go ahead and say that people here are mostly reasonable.

That said, it is probably just me being paranoid. :P I assume your best intentions. :)

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GGG_Neon wrote:

Charges

We will re-evaluate the Power and Frenzy charges situation over the weekend. It would be very useful to hear your explanation of why certain builds or items have been damaged (or improved too much) by the change, with specifics and explanations. Many of the posts so far have just said "X is ruined". While the initial feedback has been somewhat helpful, proper discussion and analysis from the community will really help us fine-tune (or abandon) this change.

There is no need to point out certain examples. The idea itself crashes on the very beginning - funneling general mechanics into specific classes of builds.

I mean, it is pretty simple. Build consists of many smaller elements: mechanics and stats. Be it on uniques, skills, passives and whatnot. Some things will be better with certain things. These will create overpowered combinations. Why would you want to gut certain choices for certain builds, when these things are still problematic on others? Shifting the problem doesn't resolve it at all.

Overall, sure - you can push that change. But no problems will be fixed that way.

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my 2 cents towards ggg:

over time you just drew in too much casuals who don't see changes as challenges and only accept nerfs in form of massive power creep like other games do. people just got conditioned like that, it may not even be their fault. it would destroy the game for the more intelligent folks but if it serves the popularity and acceptance of the game i'm all for it.


the other cent: making a closed beta to give people the chance to prepare their builds and destroying their efforts on the last meters, well if you do that on alpha it's probably less of a problem.

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Zynamo wrote:

I have 100% faith in you guys.

perhaps you shouldn't

Guess who has THOUSANDS of hours played, like 15-20 lvl 90+ characters, over $300 spent on the game, and hasn't received a Beta Key to test your nerfs GGG !!!

NOW HAVE BETA KEY FINALLY!!!
Thanks to a kind fellow player...NOT GGG

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Almost every single build this affects either got slightly nerfed (crit)

On a non crit capped attack build, losing 10-15% crit chance is a pretty fucking huge nerf... Many builds actually depend on getting and sustaining power charges for the build to feel well with crits. Nobody wants to make crit builds and run around with 35% crit chance.