[2.6] THE DISCIPLINER: 2.2k Base ES Aura, 10 Auras, 4 Curses, Insane Defenses Support Mana Guardian

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PsychicMuffin wrote:

I tested kiara's determination flask as anti-stun, and did some math on the tree and item changes, and I've gone through and done lots of little updates so it should be fully updated for 2.6 now (take special note of amulet, belt, flask changes). The only thing missing is new screenshots, since I'm still working on buying all the gear to prove the math I did, but it's difficult because nobody plays standard. Side note: if anyone has the new atziri's foible with +1 curse on it in standard I'm buying =P.

Im using atziri foible with + 1 curse, its nice to see you back cause we can discuss your build, i really like your build, this time i played more than breach, got some better stuff, better level, grinded more the atlas, using ball lightning atm (i know, ball lightning have a slow travel speed, need to get the boots enchant, btw, you can't have other sources of elemental damage, otherwise will f*k EE?)

Ofc its your build, you made it from the ground, from 0, but i think, you can help us improve your build all together with tests, give your opinion, tweaks, etc(not in the way saying the builds has flaws, ofc not) so we can make some adjustments to each other personal preferences or focus (clear speed/ guardian/ shaper, etc, or uber lab farming), with coming patch changes, 3.0.0, etc, this build can't give us 30k ES (in my opinion is better than just having BIG ES Numbers), but give so much more in terms of defense, double/triple curse (temporal chains + enfeeble combo), auras pumped.

PsychicMuffin i like your build alot, i already said that to you, this league i played more, got more deep into the details, this time i read paying more attention, its well written, and theres so much good details and information (I'll probably play your build again in in 3.0.0

If you want to test, discuss some things im here, i Have + 1 curse Atziri Foible on Legacy league if you want to test, you can check my profile, my progress until now, if you want (i dropped Armour and Energy Shield and Faith and Steel Nodes, so i can finish early the GS jewels, trying to close the build in level 94, to focus more on end game stuff, got leadership node and using + 20 % quality gems to counter abit the aoe nerfs).

Using Valyrium to help with the stun, hurt the cold defense abit (on the good side helps with capping fire resistance), i countered it with my boots (42 % cold resist), i like to have some chaos resist too (23 % atm).

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Actually, yes, the initial concept that inspired this build was Ruz's Mana Guardian.

Yeah, I looked at that build and decided the gear required was too much for starting a league. It's a solid build, but you probably need to be doing it in a permanent league. I think this build is probably better though in pretty much all circumstances.

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As an aside, has anyone investigated using the shaper's touch gloves? People seem to run this build with approximately 250 strength. With the gloves, this would give about 50% increased energy shield (globally) and 125 mana, both of which would be amazing for this build. You'd only be giving up some base energy shield (good gloves will have much higher ES) and some resistance slots. This build already has a huge amount of base ES and is really hurting for %increased ES, and it seems like resistances can still be capped using other slots, so this trade-off definitely seems worth it. The extra mana is just icing on the cake.

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Pseudorandominator wrote:

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Actually, yes, the initial concept that inspired this build was Ruz's Mana Guardian.

Yeah, I looked at that build and decided the gear required was too much for starting a league. It's a solid build, but you probably need to be doing it in a permanent league. I think this build is probably better though in pretty much all circumstances.

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As an aside, has anyone investigated using the shaper's touch gloves? People seem to run this build with approximately 250 strength. With the gloves, this would give about 50% increased energy shield (globally) and 125 mana, both of which would be amazing for this build. You'd only be giving up some base energy shield (good gloves will have much higher ES) and some resistance slots. This build already has a huge amount of base ES and is really hurting for %increased ES, and it seems like resistances can still be capped using other slots, so this trade-off definitely seems worth it. The extra mana is just icing on the cake.

Actually yes, I did look at them this week when I re-evaluated all the gear for 2.6. Because we can run foible full-time now I don't need a dex roll on my gear, and gloves was the only option, so I basically needed a rare until now. So I was curious and did some math!

I run with almost exactly 200 str, so that's 40% ES and 100 base mana on top of the base ES of 74 for shaper's touch, which if we multiply that mana by our multiplier (quadruple) and turn it into ES puts us at a total of 136 flat and 40% ES. Now, my current rare gloves have 200 base ES plus 62 mana and 50 int. The int is 10% increased ES, plus another 25 mana, which if added to the other mana and converted to ES puts us at 254 flat and 10%. So we're trading 118 flat ES and 30 chaos res for 30% ES and some nifty armor/evasion (although we're at the point of pretty high diminishing returns on those). We have about 240% increased ES (so we'd be going from 3.4 to 3.7 multiplier), so 30% works out to about 9% MORE energy shield. We have about 3,000 flat ES, so 118 flat works out to about 4% MORE energy shield.

Since I sit at about 0% chaos res, losing 30% res would be taking 30% more chaos damage (if your chaos res is higher this will be an even bigger penalty). I don't think it's worth it to get 5% more energy shield (500ish). The armor and evasion are also nice, but those differences will amount to just a couple percentage points higher evasion and armor reduction, when chaos damage is one of the most likely things to kill me in the toughest map content honestly. Maybe if you're using presence of chayula or something it's a pretty good deal.

TLDR; You go from 10k to 10,500 ES and take 30% more chaos damage, I'm not sure it's worth it. Although it does open up the possibility of an interesting corruption on gloves, I don't think any of them add too much, but I will investigate.

Hey, I was building my own guardian support and came across this thread. I am focusing entirely on defenses because I play on hardcore. I also wanted to see how far I can get on a budget, so I won't be using a Shav's or any other super expensive gear.

All of the items I use are uniques and very cheap. The gear ends up being about 40 chaos in legacy hardcore. This does not include the 12 grand spectrum jewels, which are unfortunately kind of expensive at this moment. The only two non-unique items I use include a quicksilver flask and an open slot of one of the three resistance flasks.


My build achieves:

1. 10k+ ES with Solaris Lorica. 11k with good rolls on gear.
2. 2200 ES regen per second buffed (enduring cry, consecrated ground from overflowing chalice, rejuvenation totem, stone golem, and vitality). This drops to 950 unbuffed.
3. I am also at least 44% resistance over capped (with 3 endurance charges) with 81 fire, 81 cold, 82 lightning resistances. This jumps to 83, 83, 84 with lvl 21 purity gems. And flasks bring up the resistances up +6 max res.
4. 10k armor without flask
5. 14.5k evasion without flask (60+% chance to evade)
6. Stun immunity with eye of chayula.
7. Shield charge with fortify for movement (48% movement speed without quicksilver)
8. 9 total auras: 3 purities, discipline, grace, haste, determination, vitality, and clarity
9. 12k+ mana with 12 grand spectrum jewels
10. 240 strength, 157 dexterity, 430 intelligent with mediocre gear. This can go up with good rolls.


Party gets:

1. 2400 base ES (radiant faith + discipline)
2. 9 auras (+8 to max resists, 9% phys dmg reduction, and 1.8% life regen)
3. Enfeeble and temp chains with ball lightning
4. Vaal grace, vaal discipline, and enduring cry


I am using:

Purity of fire, ice, and lightning with discipline in my alphas howl
Determination, haste, grace in prism guardian
Enduring cry, vaal grace, vaal discipline with increased duration in my shaper's touch
Curse on hit, enfeeble, temporal chains, and ball lightning in my sin trek
Shield charge, fortify, and faster attacks in my ephemeral edge

Rest of the skills are fit where ever there is room.

Cool man, those are some solid numbers! I considered making a hardcore version of the build, but decided it would be a lot of work to truly optimize for HC, and it would add a lot of stuff in an already overflowing guide. Dropping some curses and hatred aura would definitely make room for better personal defenses and maybe stronger defensive curses. But considering how much clear speed some other aura bots add, it's hard to justify dropping all the offensive boosts for it in SC. I already feel like I need to justify why to pick this build over a necrobot as it stands =P.

I was thinking about swapping in vaal haste instead of vaal discipline. I could also take Prayer of Glory instead of Bastion of Hope. This may help increase some clear speed. But I feel like the increase in clear speed would be marginal - especially in hardcore. I am under the assumption that hardcore players prefer extra defenses over some clear speed. I may be wrong and perhaps some of the hardcore players in here can help me figure it out. If they want more clear speed, I suppose I can change my build a little.

You have a great build. I hope 3.0 acts kindly on supports :D

The image is incorrect for the cobalt version, but all grand spectrums are now limited to 3. This is not a worst-case scenario, but it's pretty bad guys. We used to have 11 GS Cobalts at 15 mana per cobalt for a total of 1815 flat mana. Now we have 9 GS jewels, 3 of them cobalts at 30 per GS, for a total of 810 mana. This drops us about 3500 final mana, so over 500 base ES lost on our aura, including for us.

The upsides are we get back around 6 skill points, which we can use to get some of that mana back, plus we get another 5k base armor from the 3 GS crimson jewels, which translates into a LOT of final armor. I STILL think this grand spectrum approach is better than the old ruz's mana guardian approach where you get flat mana on every rare, but we DO get a bigger benefit of flat mana on rares (plus ES on gear was nerfed, so I think it's pretty clear now that a flat mana roll is one of the top mods on your rares). Also, we were not hurt that much by the ES on gear nerfs, so this nerf puts our ES loss on par with normal ES builds (we should still be able to hit 8k ES).

I'll tinker around with the skill tree at a later point and see what I can do with it. Maybe I can get some ES nodes, maybe I can use something like Conqueror's Efficiency to improve our auras, or maybe just more mana.

Hey PsychicMuffin, going to play the beta? i saw the changes, other grand spectrums counts towards the bonus? (like the armor one)

are you going to play in beta with this build or only when 3.0.0 go lives?

im playing the beta atm, going to make your build again xD. (leveling atm)

Ty, waiting for the changes.

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mirolino wrote:

Hey PsychicMuffin, going to play the beta? i saw the changes, other grand spectrums counts towards the bonus? (like the armor one)

are you going to play in beta with this build or only when 3.0.0 go lives?

im playing the beta atm, going to make your build again xD. (leveling atm)

Ty, waiting for the changes.

Nah, I have some other stuff going on, including a PoE web app I'm working on that I want to get done ahead of 3.0, so I'm saving up to hit 3.0 release hard. Plus I worked so hard on The Discipliner I don't really want to level him again xD, I just use the one in standard league for testing and updates and such, and play new builds each league. I'm following the beta and changes closely though, so I keep an eye out for stuff that drastically changes this build. I have some sick new builds lined up for 3.0 that I spent a long time theorycrafting, maybe I'll write another guide if they're good =P.

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PsychicMuffin wrote:

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I'll tinker around with the skill tree at a later point and see what I can do with it. Maybe I can get some ES nodes, maybe I can use something like Conqueror's Efficiency to improve our auras, or maybe just more mana.

Any chance you might share with us that tweaked (beta?) tree?