PVP Supporter Pack - Chris responded 7/10 & 7/11 & 7/12

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dalb3 wrote:

Thanks for all the comments guys!

Spoiler

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1Tokimeki2003 wrote:

Thing is,
You See this T1 Supporter Grandmaster thing I have? >>>>>>

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1684101/page/1
^ Stats > 20k forum Views, and 150+ upvotes on reddit.

I bought a t1 supports pack, I've waited nearly 2 years for my grandmaster to upload. I had to cause a public uproar for the grandmaster to be upload, (Magically, the GRANDmaster was in the halls ALL ALONG, Dispite the countless emails and proof saying that it wasn't (Liars))

My point is, T1 supporters pack and moneys means shit, if Ggg can't even admit their own mistakes, the T value technology already exist, it's not even demanding work/ creating NEW content/ heavy devlopment. It'll take LESS than 5 minutes to add pvp T values to skills, yet they won't add it, cause its TOO much effort.

PoE is a Free to play game, yes, yet it fundamentally refuses to add basic quality of life and simple fundamental polish, I'm pretty sure most of us here, has supported GGG more than enough already.

Look at Guild tab page's "Coming Soon" etc.

Yet you guys want to pay GGG more money for more false promises? Not a chance.

The only way, for PVP to be fixed / to be a thing, is that we'll get the major public on our side, yet half the community, spontaneously combust/ vomit at the mention of PVP. Casuals rules PoE, and it's now a much lesser game than it was envisioned as a "Hard" game.

Pvp is the one and only viable "Endgame" and what has kept d2 alive for so long, yet development is short sighted. and frankly, I'll probably be dead, before PVP becomes popular.

Admit it, PoE is becoming more and more shit, just like blizzard, cause casual's is where the money is at.

Lib I totally understand your frustration, if I was in your situation I would be pretty burned up about it too. But the fact remains that what we are trying to accomplish here is completely different.

Yes, I'm suggesting a supporter pack, but that's about all they have in common. This will be nothing grandiose like all the involvement of HoGM.

It doesn't require someone to invest that heavily and "immortalize their character in a new map", this involves balancing skills and QoL adjustments for a platform that already exists.

The problem we are seeing is "No one plays pvp because it's unbalanced because no one plays pvp." It's self-fulfilling. If we, the ones that see the value/future/promise it has, work with GGG on balance without them being able to say they don't have the manpower, then it could totally work.

Look, World of Warcraft cost's 15 dollars per month to play, PoE is a FREE to play game, yet, T1 supporter packs cost 500 dollars alone, that T1 Supporters pack is worth 33.33 months (Notice I have many sup packs). "Free to play game" is not really free to play after all.

Saying the hall of grandmasters is hard to program is a pile of shit, there are so many broken AI's in there, and much of the code is just copy and pasted from another master to another, it's really not that challenging. I guess, I've got a bit of a programming background, to understand how much they're really fucking it up.

a programmer costs like... 15-25 dollars max per hour, if there's 485 fucking grand masters, yet they can't spend 5 minutes to input T values, that's beyond me.... and you guys want to pay them more money?

I understand why you guys want pvp fixed and balanced, but that's not really your responsibility, if the Developer / company cares about it, there's nothing you can do about it.

Honestly I HATE the GGG's development system, the whole divination card system is retarded, those cards are essentially what GGG HAS to do / what HAS to be done, what the users buy and create is what GGG's going to do in the first place, its essentially a tiny bit of customization and self satisfaction.

Take a look at MOST of the T1 unique creation supporter packs, MANY of those supporter packs, are considered failures, pure shit items released, and most the unique designers are left disappointed. Take a look at the full Es movement boots / goddess sword etc.

100 Dollars is not a lot of money, yet not a small amount either, and this is mostly a ideological concept of course, but I'd think its a little bit too optimistic for my taste, imagine the public /reddit noob uproar if this actually goes through? Noobs would QQ that main pve / developers time would be wasted on useless features, that nobody would ever play (pvp) etc.

but then again, GGG's vision of "endgame" is dried lake, and 6 t1 items would be made in 2-3 years time, instead mind fang and brood twine would be made within months of 2.0, did I mention short short sightedness?

Instead lets make labs, that's fun and 90% of the major public loves. Oh, Wait.

e/
Additional info, its wrong to assume that GGG's a small poor indie company at this stage, GGG has sold ownership to Garena and Asia, that alone should be able to keep staff AND servers up and running (Without Counting us the West).

If you'd dive deep enough, you'll find the fundamental flaw, in ggg's development failures, is their strict AF recruitment restrictions, they require their entire team to be in AUS/ same county, and refuses most foreign developers / talents. My point is that, GGG's not a poor company.

Yes GGG has a MORE than fair, MTX system, that has very little pay 2 win aspects, yet they fail at realizing possible revenues, such as skins and art.

I won't get into the intricacies of programming. Although many parts are, that part of nerdism is not my field. :D

You didn't buy GM pack to get T values put in or have your AI working great, you paid $500 to get your character uploaded to a map - that's it. If we are paying them to balance PVP/set current and new T values/QoL adjustments, then that will happen if they are receptive.

Reddit and trolls do 1 thing very, very well: complain

Post a cute puppy doing backflips while barking the tune of "Iron Man", and they'd still find a way to complain and downvote it. They're going to complain about anything, so I don't want to involve reddit at this stage.

As I mentioned, I would like to do a "soft launch" first.

They don't have to put this on front page, they don't even have to put it next to the other supporter packs - they can if they want, but they don't have to. I want this to be something that we, the pvp community, get the ball rolling on because I feel like 50-100 packs is more than enough to get things going. Once people see us posting with the tags, I imagine they will either ask us about it or come to pvp discussion forum and find this thread. If it goes through, we'll sticky the link here. I don't want this in the face of people that will only downvote/complain about it because they don't matter. What matters is that there are people out there that want to PVP, and they aren't the ones complaining on reddit. I've been playing this game 3.5 years and I just signed up for reddit last month. I know I'm not alone either! Not everyone that plays this game is on reddit, so it's not the be-all end-all.

Yes, GGG is not a poor company anymore, but they are still a business. It's possible to work for the biggest company in the world and still not give your workers/customers what they need - it's just a fact of any business. But if the issue is manpower or not enough hours in the day, then let's alleviate that issue by funding them to fix it through purchasing supporter packs for those sole reasons.

Lets say we had this idea 2 years ago and GGG actually went for it. Lets pretend we all bought supporter packs and got PvP nice and balanced. Then comes ascendency completely redefining the PvP meta and introduces lots of broken skills/mechanics that need to be balanced. We would all have to buy PvP supporter packs again to fix those issues, the process would repeat itself endlessly.

We wouldn't get to make PvP our way GGG would still work on PvP in the manner they think is best for their game and last time they worked on PvP it was strictly LLD. After working with GGG myself on an avatar and reading all the horror stories about supporter uniques I dont think this is a good idea at all. Let GGG fix their own game theres a ton of player out there playing other games right now that could/would be playing POE if it had PvP that should be incentive enough for them to put some effort into it but it's not.

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1Tokimeki2003 wrote:

If you'd dive deep enough, you'll find the fundamental flaw, in ggg's development failures, is their strict AF recruitment restrictions, they require their entire team to be in AUS/ same county, and refuses most foreign developers / talents. My point is that, GGG's not a poor company.

I agree to all of your points but this is bullshit, I used to work in Australia for a while and tried to apply to a full time working visa before loosing interest in the country and trust me, this is extremely complicated.

Fact is, AUS/NZ foreigner recrutement process is extremely complicated. First you have to fill a form saying that you can't find the skill you are looking for in the country. Then you have to apply to get a sponsorship license, then you have to add a position, then a foreigner have to aply to that position and must have a certain amount of points and beeing able to get a skill certification from AUS/NZ, ect...

This is a very long, complexe AND expensive process wich mean small company can't really afford that even if they want to.

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Dethklok wrote:

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Yo yooo Deth,

If all the players that wanted to play PVP left, then there would effectively be no one playing the game that wants to PVP. I know I'm saying the obvious, but that's not the answer. GGG would then never fix anything because the numbers aren't there and there is not a metric in place to measure players that WOULD play your game if you had "X". We have to let our numbers be known instead of giving up because "POE PVP lol".

A lot of the problems that have plagued PVP have done so for some time now, and ascendancy only exacerbated those existing issues. Yes there are OP classes, but OP stuff is starting to rear it's head in PVE, and if they fix those issues in PVE, it will help in PVP (assuming there are T values etc...), and if a couple of us of the pvp community already had a rapport with someone from GGG that we could speak to about concrete balance changes, upkeep wouldn't take much time at all. They fixed glitchy CTF and Guardian's Harmony of Purpose PVP glitch in the last month internally, it's possible if we give them the right push they could do balance changes as needed if the revenue is there.

They sent greendude out for 1 week and all he knew about was LLD. I think at the time everyone was excited about getting anything done, but in hindsight it was the worst possible decision they could have made because LLD is not true endgame, HLD is. Don't get me wrong, LLD has it's place, but for us that have played the living shit out of the PVE portion of this game, HLD is the true endgame.

I know GGG's endgame vision is "Competetive PVE", who can run X the fastest or Y as many times without dying etc... but this is very short-sighted and no matter what, the content will get old. PVP is the only thing that is constantly growing as people make new characters and new skills are introduced.

Once this is presented to them, if GGG says no, then that's fine. It's the nail in the coffin, and we all know there is no hope and we either stop playing PVP or play EA/LA/Vortex/Traps until the end of time - but at least we tried. And at least we aren't hanging on every few months like GGG's metaphorical mistress, hoping he'll divorce his wife and choose us. This way, we definitively know and can move on.

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IceDeal wrote:

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1Tokimeki2003 wrote:

If you'd dive deep enough, you'll find the fundamental flaw, in ggg's development failures, is their strict AF recruitment restrictions, they require their entire team to be in AUS/ same county, and refuses most foreign developers / talents. My point is that, GGG's not a poor company.

I agree to all of your points but this is bullshit, I used to work in Australia for a while and tried to apply to a full time working visa before loosing interest in the country and trust, this is extremely complicated.

Fact is, AUS/NZ foreigner recrutement process is extremely complicated. First you have to fill a form saying that you can't find the skill you are looking for in the country. Then you have to apply to get a sponsorship license, then you have to add a position, then a foreigner have to aply to that position and must have a certain amount of points and beeing able to get a skill certification from AUS/NZ, ect...

This is a very long, complexe AND expensive process wich mean small company can't really afford that even if they want to.

[Fact is, AUS/NZ foreigner recrutement process is extremely complicated. First you have to fill a form saying that you can't find the skill you are looking for in the country. Then you have to apply to get a sponsorship license, then you have to add a position, then a foreigner have to aply to that position and must have a certain amount of points and beeing able to get a skill certification from AUS/NZ, ect...]

^Alone comply to my statement, I'm not sure how expensive it is, however in a European standard, there's a thing called free lacing / out sourcing contracts, whereby you hire external talents on temporary contracts. WHICH is actually cheaper than having fully time employees.

[This is a very long, complexe AND expensive process wich mean small company can't really afford that even if they want to.]
^ my point still stands, regardless of price and cost, GGG doesn't have the necessary developersand poor development management, and if you really think GGG's poor and can't afford developers, you really need to see how big PoE is on Garena / Asia. but even if so, then again whose fault is it that GGG's not making enough money on possible skin/ MTX revenues?

You disagree with me on technicality, but NOT the main actual purpose.

Out topic for Lib

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IceDeal wrote:

Out topic for Lib

Spoiler

To go through the full process I would have to spend at least between 3000-4000 AUS Dollars and probably wait between one or two years before being able to go back there.

Yes remote work is possible but it's probably a tax nightmare in AUS/NZ, I was working in a digital agency and we'd NEVER do sub contracting outside the country.

All the freelances were Australian or from New Zealand. I cheated that system for a year using a working holiday visa and then the company tried to sponsored me but screw up the form. In the end I worked for them for almost 9 more months in absolute illegality before they got caught by the taxe office and kicking me out of the country (while understanding it was not my fault but it was just the law).

TL/DR Hiring foreigners in AUS/NZ is a hard and long process than even medium/big companies try to avoid.

In the grand scheme of things, 3000-4000 dollars is very little money, a decent 3d artist, can whip up the entire dragon armor set within 20-60 hours, and do you know how much those thing sells for? and how numerical?

as said, management/ recruitment failure. If there wasn't a problem in the first place, we'd wouldn't have this discussion in the first place.

I understand what you're saying its hard for them, but at this point, it really not a excuse.

If you take a look around, there's a lot of players, like me or you, or ahfack and every other streamers, we are WILLING to help and advertise, and yet look, there's absolutely no response, or any official responses.

e/

GGG's no longer a small indie company anymore, GGG's a international company, now with severs around the world, and should act as one. As a result, casuals catering is soon to be in full force...

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Saranghaeyo_ wrote:

To address Lib's post, I will say from my observations that there is legitimate concern towards the general direction that the game is willing to go. Or rather, the general direction that the company is willing to go. The "casual" effect, or basically what is in effect diluting the "difficult" aspects of the game, sacrifices devoted/hardcore players for what is, in my opinion, a temporary boost at best at revenue. Ofc I don't need to bring up D3 or League of Legends in depth, however I am sure the majority of people in this thread know what happened with the direction of those games.

From a mostly PVE Player's perspective, GGG has not broken my threshold of bullshit tolerance for me to give up on them. But then again, reviewing the content in Lib's post shows me that from a PVP Player's perspective, more attention is probably necessary to cater to that crowd (sans the Grandmaster thing, which appears to be an outlier). The reason I am willing to support this also comes with the fact that I know a lot of people in this subforum from various situations where I've had the pleasure of crossing paths, and that PVP interests me in general. Thus is the reason I am willing to give this a chance.

You the man Sarang

calm down dudes. NZ is like denmark, its high taxes, high salaries system. when you hire someone, you pay half of the salary to the government, only the other half gets in the hands of your employee. NZ tracks everything that GGG does, you cant make people work for cheap, NZ woudlnt allow you to hire cheap work power because they want you to pay big salary so they can get his big tax, and thats what they care for only. also every job field has its own workers union, they set the minimum wage for each job. so even though minimum wage is 20 dolars per hour, you cant pay a programmer 20 dolars per hour.

if you dont pay those taxes, they fuck you up. big time. its very hard to make foreigners work for such companies in such countries, cause NZ tax system would tax GGG with NZ prices anyway. everything is under control, there is no escape from tax.

20 dolars per hour is like minimum wage here in denmark. NZ was close to that. for 20 dollars people flip burgets here dont do programming.

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''The minimum wage
On 1 April 2016, the adult minimum wage went up by 50 cents to $15.25 an hour from.''

found it. lets assume one programmer gets 15 dolars per hour, he would get 120 per day, 2400 per month. im sure in real its like x2 x3 times more than that. and those programmers have some hierarchy too, some earns more than others.

having a company with 50 employees trust me, costs shit loads of money.

they at least require total 500.000 dolars income monthly to sustain such company. probably 200.000 of it is just tax that they are supposed to pay to NZ. NZ

count me in though, ahfack should bring this pvp supporter pack idea. i'd definitely buy some.