Life Gain on Hit

a buff for heavy strike and power siphon, but nerf for AoE or multi hitting skills.

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michaelra wrote:

So anyone has an idea what the latest update,

"Life Gain on Hit is now scaled by the Damage Effectiveness of a skill."

is going to affect the gameplay? I assume this is a nerf?

yeap,

game is pointless now cant get any life from ground slam or cyclone

this is just pathetic

you should be able to get plenty still from those two skills >.>, you get 80% of the listed life gain on hit via ground slam PER foe hit. similar for cyclone except is has both AoE and double strike deal going on... plus stun immunity... despite 35% modifier.

Would have been good to know why Life Gain on Hit was changed from static to static-variable.

We already have Life Leech as a variable.

I'm simply curious as to why the new design decision?

Cheers,

"

Vipermagi wrote:

"

darkdraithdoom wrote:

I'm simply curious as to why the new design decision?

Because it was inordinately powerful with fast-hitting skills. Those same skills tend to have lower Damage Effectiveness. The introduction of Cyclone (which would be downright silly with full-force Life Gain on Hit) is likely to be a decently significant factor :P

I agree and I also disagree. It's an interesting quick fix but they need to touch up on other abilities that are lackluster now.

There are exceptions to other skills like, Dual Strike "On-hit Effects: Effects that typically occur when you hit an enemy will only apply for this skill once per use." it should be twice but I won't argue with this at the moment...

The Dual Strike skill specifically behaves differently with Life Gain on Hit support gem. See where i'm going with this?

Without the change of Life Gain on Hit there could have been a new category/keyword called : 'Special Attack' instead of just 'Attack'

>Life Gain on Hit would have remained the same.
>Cyclone keywords are:Special Attack, AoE and Melee.
>All other support gems that need to work with Cyclone gain keyword Special Attack.

Self Q&A
But I can't use Life Gain on Hit anymore on Cyclone!? Use Life Leech instead, it's already a variable that scales late game.
Why call it a special attack? Cuz it spins and you kill stuff
Why is it level 31 req? It should be...

Okay so lets not do that ^

I can live with the change. Just simply make Dual Strike gain 2 applications of life, etc, etc

Cheers,

"

darkdraithdoom wrote:

I agree and I also disagree. It's an interesting quick fix but they need to touch up on other abilities that are lackluster now.

There are exceptions to other skills like, Dual Strike "On-hit Effects: Effects that typically occur when you hit an enemy will only apply for this skill once per use." it should be twice but I won't argue with this at the moment...

The Dual Strike skill specifically behaves differently with Life Gain on Hit support gem. See where i'm going with this?

Without the change of Life Gain on Hit there could have been a new category/keyword called : 'Special Attack' instead of just 'Attack'

>Life Gain on Hit would have remained the same.
>Cyclone keywords are:Special Attack, AoE and Melee.
>All other support gems that need to work with Cyclone gain keyword Special Attack.

Self Q&A
But I can't use Life Gain on Hit anymore on Cyclone!? Use Life Leech instead, it's already a variable that scales late game.
Why call it a special attack? Cuz it spins and you kill stuff
Why is it level 31 req? It should be...

Okay so lets not do that ^

I can live with the change. Just simply make Dual Strike gain 2 applications of life, etc, etc

Cheers,

Dual Strike isn't a special case. You're linking the wiki, which is not an official ressource, that tip was probably added for people who don't want to bother reading up on the skills. However the reason it only applies once is simply because Dual Strike is a single hit. Both weapons damage is calculated, then added together and produce one single hit. As such it only procs LoH once. That's a downside, upside is you get a much higher chance to proc status ailment or stun the enemy since instead of 2 smaller hits it's one bigger hit.

The effectiveness nerf was most likely to balance out LoH in AoE situations since most AoE actually have a reduced effectiveness. However, I don't really agree with the way it was implemented much. For example LoH is exceedingly strong on projectiles still because even though the effectiveness went down, it's not affected by the fact you link projectiles to chain, LMP, GMP, Fork or Pierce. So LMP+Chain+LA still heals a billion per hit, just happens to be 30% less than before but still a ton more than whatever you can get out of a melee attack. At the same time LoH was equally nerfed for melee builds. Exception would be Lightning Strike which for some reason has had its effectiveness increased at some point(or maybe I never noticed it was 120%), meaning LoH is actually stronger on LS by a large margin and LS can still benefit from chain etc. A bit messed up for balance in my opinion since the most affected are melees and the least affected are ranged builds.

I think they had to nerf it because Cyclone would have broken LoH too much, but it's a fairly poor implementation. I think LoH should simply have 2 values, one for melee, one for projectile. Then they can both be affected by effectiveness too on top of that, so cyclone isn't crazy.

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Dual Strike isn't a special case.

Its not?

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You're linking the wiki, which is not an official ressource, that tip was probably added for people who don't want to bother reading up on the skills.

Probably, so you are not sure?

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However the reason it only applies once is simply because Dual Strike is a single hit.

I know the reason - I got my source from the not an official resource site. Did I mention that Dual Strike should work as 2 separate hits? If not, I was implying that it SHOULD regardless of current mechanic.

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Both weapons damage is calculated, then added together and produce one single hit. As such it only procs LoH once.

I know how the current mechanic works.

"

That's a downside, upside is you get a much higher chance to proc status ailment or stun the enemy since instead of 2 smaller hits it's one bigger hit.

At least you know it's a downside. *bro hug*

"

The effectiveness nerf was most likely to balance out LoH in AoE situations since most AoE actually have a reduced effectiveness. However, I don't really agree with the way it was implemented much. For example LoH is exceedingly strong on projectiles still because even though the effectiveness went down, it's not affected by the fact you link projectiles to chain, LMP, GMP, Fork or Pierce. So LMP+Chain+LA still heals a billion per hit, just happens to be 30% less than before but still a ton more than whatever you can get out of a melee attack. At the same time LoH was equally nerfed for melee builds. Exception would be Lightning Strike which for some reason has had its effectiveness increased at some point(or maybe I never noticed it was 120%), meaning LoH is actually stronger on LS by a large margin and LS can still benefit from chain etc. A bit messed up for balance in my opinion since the most affected are melees and the least affected are ranged builds.

I think they had to nerf it because Cyclone would have broken LoH too much, but it's a fairly poor implementation. I think LoH should simply have 2 values, one for melee, one for projectile. Then they can both be affected by effectiveness too on top of that, so cyclone isn't crazy.

It's a safe implementation, but it wasn't the best and it can be improved. Your last paragraph suggestion might be a good idea. The damage effectiveness might need more attention per skill to bring everything up to scratch as well.

Cheers,
DarkDraithDoom

<redacted>

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darkdraithdoom wrote:

Tons of multiquoting stuff

Thanks for fragmenting my post so you could add snide remarks on what I said, I may have made the assumption you were confused on how the skill works because you quoted the wiki page, which is a fan-made article, as if it had any sort of value in how a skill should function, then proceeded to argue based on a flawed hypothesis, the fact that dual strike was a special case in regards to how it behaves with LoH when it is not. Wether or not Dual Strike should be considered 2 hits and as such benefit from LoH twice is fairly irrelevant to LoH itself, it's something you'd need to discuss in the Dual Strike feedback. LoH works as expected with Dual Strike, it is no exception, one hit, one proc.

Your suggestion is more or less the same as the current implementation, only that instead of reducing the LoH amount, some abilities would simply not get LoH at all, which further reduce the amount of skills LoH would work on. The advantage is that you could add such a tag to the supports that make projectiles into large aoes, however it would hurt melees again as LoH is much better than Lifesteal for a fairly long period of time so some builds would be weaker by being forced to use LL. At least with the current system you can still use LoH, it's just not quite as good as it used to be. They could also add damage efficiency reduction instead of the current projectile reduction on the supports and fix them that way, still by not removing the option but by making it less potent.