Upcoming changes to Leech

What will the 1-2% life leech/mana leech change too on rare rings or gloves? Melee has a hard time with leech already so I hope the leech rate change for duelist is integrated with main nodes. Current leech was nerfed to ground for melee in sac if the Vaal. Melee cannot tank top bosses anymore anyways. Why change it so much?

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sidtherat wrote:

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Dark_Chicken wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

on topic:

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last CON - cyclone and tornado shot remain THE skills to use.

will there be a nerf to cyclone? it is going to be ridiculous with 85% of all melee players doing spin-to-win..

Nerf the best skill of the worse bunch (melee) relative to range, spells, crit etc. is your answer to balance? What kind of illogical shit is this?

it is called game integrity and longevity

if there is a skill (and we know that there is) or a playstyle (and we know that there is) or an item (and there are) that is CLEARLY superior to everything else - then this item has to be cut down. otherwise (by the way of the stupid - 'BUFF EVERYTHING ELSE but do not nerf me!') the power creep overtakes everthing and there is a build that 90% of a population plays

fun? for people that have to compensate and 'be the best in poe' as a way to feel good about themselves. but for others it is a shallow game with no longevity

who plays any other bow skill after playing tornado shot? why reroll when the next character WILL BE a lot weaker than current tornado shot.

man you don't have a freaking clue what you're talking about.

cyclone has it's AOE already nerfed, you want more nerf so there will be even less melee in 2.0? you want players to choose other melee skills which are shit (and probably still be shit after 2.0), then buff those skills to make them more appealing than cyclone.

you want to nerf something which is OP OVERALL, not a freaking subset... like TS, which is OP relative to everything pretty much, I agree. but cyclone is clearly not OP now vs bunch of range, spell skills. yea, compare it to dog shit like other melee skills cyclone is OP... what a bunch of nonsense.

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_RebeL_ wrote:

This has been tiped before and the reason for this change is mainly Mjolner and Acuity builds, specially since havoc was doing uber atziri runs with mjolner/discharge/LifeLeech on bloodlines and streaming to 2k viewers.

It looks like a very poor decision, its like "1% of builds are doing too much damage, hence we will nerf life leech, too bad we'll screw a ton of other build".

Yeah - plus I dont see the reason why those OP builds have to be nerfed at all. It is not like you can go ahead, buy a Voll's Devotion, Mjoellner, a Shavronnes, a 400++ ES shield and all the other gear for a few chaos and own a league. You have to work your way up there and why shouldnt something achieved with so much playing crafting trading and fighting be rewarding. The average player will never get there ( most probably dont even want to ) and those who get there will have enough currency / uniques at hand that they will be able to counter any nerf anyways.

To me the fact that such builds work proves that right now ballance is actually working well. It enables so many creative builds without making any build invulnerable.

Personally such builds fuel my creativity and give me something to strive for.

Furthermore those builds arent so overpowered - slightly break their ballance and the whole build just stops functioning. Build destroyed, diversity reduced even further and any other build punished - GG.

I'm honestly disappointed with the proposed changes. As I see it there is no reason not to use Tornado shot and blood rage for easy dps, insane range, and massive leech for such a tiny investment. With the increase to monster damage I really hoped leech would be reworked to heavily favor melee builds. Melee builds can't out aoe something like tornado shot, and with the new changes in beta are pushed into using too many non dps supports/gimmicks to stay alive. Do melee builds now have to use Endurance Charge on Melee Kill and Fortify to negate the buff in monster dmg/hp and provide endurance charges for CWDT+IC after its nerf? The melee builds probably need leech most since they're in range of all attacks and have had other part of their survivability nerfed. Very few packs are dangerous, and the dangerous ones tend to have high burst potential (chargers - rhoas and black guard, leapers - chimeral, and poppers - devourer). Versus packs that are actually capable of doing damage leech is a poor defense since its burst damage and to leech means you usually are stationary. There are currently serious risk/reward balance issues that make skipping bosses seem very appealing and this will push the envelope even further. Nerf leech in general and add a passive node and probably a unique as well that gives melee users an increased amount of leech so range users dont enjoy safety from distance as well as the same leech effectiveness as melee. Logically or per lore, how can you leech the same with a bow from across the screen as with a melee weapon at melee range, it just makes more sense that leech be specialized for melee, especially considering melee's current awful spot.


So what about claws? After the patch Soulraker and Claws of the Magpie passives are still awful. Are you going to change the implicit on claws themselves or are you happy with them being pretty much useless?

With all these proposed changes and the current state of the beta you give me weekly reasons NOT to play melee builds anymore and to continue abusing Tornado Shot/Blood Rage in short term/ challenge leagues.

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Uvne wrote:

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A maximum leech rate will cap the rate at which you can leech.

Can we get some clarification as to what a leech rate cap means? Before, there wasn't one, so does this mean that the new leech rate scaling available on the tree and through the Life Leech gem hits a ceiling at some point? And then you say that this cap will itself be scalable?

So, for example, the default life leech rate is 10% max HP/s, the leech rate cap is 35% max HP/s for all characters no matter how much "increased life leech rate" you get, but then you can get "+3% maximum life leech rate" on a node, bringing the new leech rate cap to 38% max HP/s? Is that right?

Leech rate cap isn't really new. It is currently 20% MHP/s.

My interpretation goes like this:
Lets say they nerf the base leech rate down to 1% MHP/s. Since the effects stack it means if you hit 1 target you will leech at 1% MHP/s. If you hit 20 targets or 1 target 20 times you will be leeching at 20% MHP/s. The cap means if that if you manage to hit 20 targets 20 times you will still be limited 20% MHP/s.

If I am correct then this is a very nice change. Hitting fast, hitting hard or hitting many things at once should all give similar results instead of the current situation where it is great if you hit hard but if you scaling with speed instead it is not as good and hitting multiple things doesn't provide any benefit.

While I somewhat understand and agree with what you said Severance, I don't think this change is necessarily going to fix that issue. On a hard hitting char, the leech values of the second and third hits are irrelevant because you're capping your leech anyway and if for some reason you aren't, the second and third hits will kick in -- if your leech is below the per second cap, then it'll fall off before the second ends allowing the new leech to fill that time. In long drawn out fights too, because health mechanics drop leeches and flasks when you hit max life, you're also afforded opportunity to start new leech that is only effective if you keep swinging. It's all very circumstantial.

What it will do though is give you incentive to hit more monsters, and hit faster, which I think is good. Who doesn't use an AoE of some type for clearing? I'm still a little worried about how it'll impact boss fights though. Will have to wait and see.

meh this game is sounding more like d3 all the time. Hope we dont have to engage in "hit and run" tactics slowing down end-game gameplay.

plz keep in mind caster too who dont get luxury of blood rage or life leech on items save 1% on like doryani belt or weapon..


Kudos to OP for supporting company he works for BTW. They are paying u too much.xD

Dear GGG, we don't need the leech to be better for pack of monsters; they are normally just meat for getting xp and not a problem. Survival problems are always when you meet the bosses and now you are nerfing a mechanic which was very helpful against the toughest monsters of the game.
Definitely not a good change

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perafelix wrote:

Dear GGG, we don't need the leech to be better for pack of monsters; they are normally just meat for getting xp and not a problem. Survival problems are always when you meet the bosses and now you are nerfing a mechanic which was very helpful against the toughest monsters of the game.
Definitely not a good change

Exactly. Would be better if they were more clear about what they are doing, instead of calling it 'changes'.

For those who still don't get it, ggg thinks killing palace dominus is a trivial task, because of some Op rich people build that can face tank it.
In fact, 99% of players have problems doing palace dominus, or just skip it altogether.

This is the more nonsense update in poe history.

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_RebeL_ wrote:

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perafelix wrote:

Dear GGG, we don't need the leech to be better for pack of monsters; they are normally just meat for getting xp and not a problem. Survival problems are always when you meet the bosses and now you are nerfing a mechanic which was very helpful against the toughest monsters of the game.
Definitely not a good change

Exactly. Would be better if they were more clear about what they are doing, instead of calling it 'changes'.

For those who still don't get it, ggg thinks killing palace dominus is a trivial task, because of some Op rich people build that can face tank it.
In fact, 99% of players have problems doing palace dominus, or just skip it altogether.

This is the more nonsense update in poe history.

I have personally never gotten to fight Atziri, much less Uber. So far I like a lot of the changes to leech, but I have doubts on how effective they will be at end game.

That said, I have been sad because one of my favourite playstyles I have not been able to play since Sacrifice of the Vaal. At least, not with any true effectiveness. I enjoyed playing a mediocre flicker strike build (CI/Ghost) until Sacrifice when VP got nerfed into the ground and I could not afford to buy the high currency items required to power it. With the changes to Blood Rage one of my main concerns will be achieving high enough life leech to accomplish enough leech to keep myself alive. (Especially considering the extra changes to EC etc) I enjoy coming up with new builds and try a lot of different (often stupid but crazy) builds, but I usually at some point in a league try to build a flicker, regardless of how unfeasible it might be for a casual player.

However, this is a BETA and there are a lot of tests that have to happen to balance everything. Sometimes what look like stupid ideas are good ideas, and what look like good ideas are stupid. The only way to know is by testing them, let GGG test their ideas, good or bad, and provide feedback by trying out your own good or bad ideas. You can prove that it's a bad idea only by coming up with the builds and running them showing what kind of performance they give.

Hard data speaks louder than QQ.